RE: Electric Jaguar XJ confirmed for 2020
Discussion
Johnspex said:
sonnenschein3000 said:
I have no interest in fully electric cars, and I am sure that I never will. That feeling of going through the gears and bouncing off the red line with the crackles and pops through the exhaust will never be replaced by anything- There is nothing that electric cars can do to provide that level of positive driver feedback.
Straight from The Boy's Book of Car Cliches. You only missed out oppy lock, scrubbing off speed and calling the car she.As an experience they are different and I'll quite admit compared to wringing the neck of an analogue classic probably lacking, but thats not what this XJ is replacing.
sonnenschein3000 said:
I have no interest in fully electric cars, and I am sure that I never will. That feeling of going through the gears and bouncing off the red line with the crackles and pops through the exhaust will never be replaced by anything- There is nothing that electric cars can do to provide that level of positive driver feedback.
B17NNS said:
Presumably you'd leave the house with a full charge. Drive the ? 250 miles and charge at your destination. Enjoy your day, return leg with a full charge and plug in again when you get home. A 700 mile one day drive is so far beyond what could be considered normal use that it's not really worth catering for. Huge batteries, huge expense, huge weight. Makes far more sense to build a car capable of half that and work on making the charging infastructure fast and trouble free. In a model S it would be one stop for about an hour which will no doubt improve as the tech matures. I'm sure your bladder would thank you anyway 
If a few dozen people rolled up to the festival of speed (or any other event) expecting to recharge to 80% or whatever it'd create a huge demand for temporary charging stations and the associated network capacity. It's not totally unworkable but expect to pay for charging capability/capacity outside of the business-as-usual scenario.Meanwhile, in the real world, charging infrastructure is inadequate to support even the miniscule numbers of BEVs we have on the road already.
Also, the XJ has always been about more than just wafting. Five generations of XJRs, not to mention that the classic XJ6s and XJ12s could be had with a manual gearbox... it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
Also, the XJ has always been about more than just wafting. Five generations of XJRs, not to mention that the classic XJ6s and XJ12s could be had with a manual gearbox... it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
skinthespin said:
I've done the last 100k miles and 5 years in my xj supersport, mixed feelings about this. The xj is an awesome mile muncher and looking forward to my 4 hour drive to goodwood in it tomorrow, how would I do that in an electric at the moment?.
I've been very critical of the iPace. Jaguar talked the talk, spent ££££ on marketing but failed to deliver. It almost feels like JLR rush it out to beat Audi and Merc at the cost of properly developing the drive train and software. The iPace is a good car but not a good EV, however the potential is clear.
BUT am also really glad to see Jaguar properly fully commit to EVs. We've done 50k miles in EVs, going all over the UK and a trip to France. Last weekend we spent 6hrs in the car, with the aircon on at full blast and still didn't have any issues with range.
Range really is not an issue, especially by the time we can actually get hold off an EV XJ. Assuming Jag can hit an efficiency of 3.5 miles per kWh with the low profile of the XJ, throw in a 100kWh pack and your at 350 miles range, which is more than my old 335i BMW. But efficient is really key and Jaguar cannot do another half arsed job on that front like they did with the iPace.
Personally I like to spend my money on companies that are progressive rather than just out to reward the share holders, what Jaguar is doing is very brave, and I look fowards to been a customer soon
.RobDickinson said:
I'm trying to imagine a Jaguar owner who doesnt have electricity at home (and even a driveway)..
I've known Jag owners who've routinely parked on the street because it was their only option. Anyway, I was talking about chargers out on the road network. Teslas just aren't practical for seriously long-distance touring, and they need recharging en-route. The charging network is fragile and hopelessly inadequate (not to mention that Tesla has a monopoly over much of it).RoverP6B said:
it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
You haven't actually driven an EV have you??The throttle response of a Nissan Leaf makes a BMW M3 feel like your trying to modulate the BMWs engine by telegram.
Combustion engines are already dead for 'sports' cars. The electric motor can deliver more power, in a tighter package, and at a cost of 3p per mile in fuel even when trashed versus nearly ten times that. Add in the clear growing social stigma of having a stupidly loud car when stuck in traffic, am not sure who would want to buy a 'powerful driver-oriented ICE' any more let alone develop one.
EVs still don't make much sense at the lower end of the market due to battery cost, but for the £60k+ segment its not the future but the present, as Jaguar clearly understands.
You just have to look at the ownership profile of the Tesla FaceBook group to see the market for an EV XJ is clearly there. Deliver the right product and Jaguar will have a queue of customers lining up, and I'll happily take make place......Though I will probably wait 6 months and try to snag a discounted demo
.RoverP6B said:
Teslas just aren't practical for seriously long-distance touring
Again its amazing to see how so many people form opinions on things based on 0 real world experience.This is why I love what Jaguar have done, people can carry on with what ever they think about EVs, but there is actually 0 point in 'debating' the matter.
You want to own the new XJ? It'll be an EV, simple.
I really cannot wait for it!!
3p a mile? Yeah right.
Electric motors deliver 100% torque at all times, we know that, but they're a blunt tool, one hit of power and they're done - rather like a turbodiesel in that respect. Effective in a slightly brutish way, but not exactly thrilling or civilised.
BEVs are the emperor's new cars... give it another decade and, with carbon-capture petroleum fuels hitting the market, people will see the BEV fad for the utter folly that it is. Jaguar are going to get their fingers burned badly (possibly bankrupted) by this idiocy... there is a reason why the German big 3 haven't gone rushing in even though they undoubtedly have the technology (VAG with the Golf E, Audi E-Trons etc, M-B had that electric SLS, BMW with the i3, i8 and electric Minis...). 48v mild hybrids make perfect sense, even range-extender things which predominantly use electric propulsion before switching over to direct petrol power as the motor runs out of puff, fine... but pure EVs just don't work for most people in most places, which is why they still only account for 4% of sales. They are also the antithesis of Jaguar's brand values of driver involvement... and whatever Elon tells you, BEVs will never be driver's cars and will never have character or soul in the way great ICE cars (the X351 V8s included) do.
I think a lot of people forget why this forum exists. It's not about economy or efficiency, less still going green. It's about deriving pleasure from a great driver's car...
Electric motors deliver 100% torque at all times, we know that, but they're a blunt tool, one hit of power and they're done - rather like a turbodiesel in that respect. Effective in a slightly brutish way, but not exactly thrilling or civilised.
BEVs are the emperor's new cars... give it another decade and, with carbon-capture petroleum fuels hitting the market, people will see the BEV fad for the utter folly that it is. Jaguar are going to get their fingers burned badly (possibly bankrupted) by this idiocy... there is a reason why the German big 3 haven't gone rushing in even though they undoubtedly have the technology (VAG with the Golf E, Audi E-Trons etc, M-B had that electric SLS, BMW with the i3, i8 and electric Minis...). 48v mild hybrids make perfect sense, even range-extender things which predominantly use electric propulsion before switching over to direct petrol power as the motor runs out of puff, fine... but pure EVs just don't work for most people in most places, which is why they still only account for 4% of sales. They are also the antithesis of Jaguar's brand values of driver involvement... and whatever Elon tells you, BEVs will never be driver's cars and will never have character or soul in the way great ICE cars (the X351 V8s included) do.
I think a lot of people forget why this forum exists. It's not about economy or efficiency, less still going green. It's about deriving pleasure from a great driver's car...
RoverP6B said:
3p a mile? Yeah right.
This is the 'fuel' usage of our EV, 6 seater 2.5ton+ SUV, life time average over 25K is the same as the last 4K. We pay 8p per kWh, you can do the maths your self
.
But as I've said you can get as angry about EVs as you like, and am sure there are many people like you, but ultimately Jaguar has settled this particular debate. If you don't like EVs just don't buy the new XJ, and hopefully soon any new Jag.
It's been a while since I paid close attention to an electricity bill, but I'm pretty sure you'd only get into single figures per kwh if you were on a cheap overnight tariff or generating your own.
There is a reason why everyone, Jaguar included, is continuing to invest in new ICEs, while Eco-Trump is heading towards bankruptcy as his undercapitalised company gets a reputation for turning out catastrophically badly-built products that depreciate horrendously.
I have come close to buying an XJ on numerous occasions over many years but it's never quite been the right car. One day I shall, and it will be a V8. You will pluck the keys to my ICE cars out of my cold dead hands before you catch me in an EV. Not only do I hate the cars, I also despise the smug know-it-alls who drive the blasted things. Well, it's their cash, and such fools are easily parted from their money. I prefer to drive engaging, rewarding cars that I know will go up in value...
There is a reason why everyone, Jaguar included, is continuing to invest in new ICEs, while Eco-Trump is heading towards bankruptcy as his undercapitalised company gets a reputation for turning out catastrophically badly-built products that depreciate horrendously.
I have come close to buying an XJ on numerous occasions over many years but it's never quite been the right car. One day I shall, and it will be a V8. You will pluck the keys to my ICE cars out of my cold dead hands before you catch me in an EV. Not only do I hate the cars, I also despise the smug know-it-alls who drive the blasted things. Well, it's their cash, and such fools are easily parted from their money. I prefer to drive engaging, rewarding cars that I know will go up in value...
RoverP6B said:
It's been a while since I paid close attention to an electricity bill, but I'm pretty sure you'd only get into single figures per kwh if you were on a cheap overnight tariff or generating your own.
There is a reason why everyone, Jaguar included, is continuing to invest in new ICEs, while Eco-Trump is heading towards bankruptcy as his undercapitalised company gets a reputation for turning out catastrophically badly-built products that depreciate horrendously.
I have come close to buying an XJ on numerous occasions over many years but it's never quite been the right car. One day I shall, and it will be a V8. You will pluck the keys to my ICE cars out of my cold dead hands before you catch me in an EV. Not only do I hate the cars, I also despise the smug know-it-alls who drive the blasted things. Well, it's their cash, and such fools are easily parted from their money. I prefer to drive engaging, rewarding cars that I know will go up in value...
Sorry but you're wrong there. I pay 14p/kWh with Bulb (rounding up) and it costs me about £1.80 per day to do my 60 mile commute. Oddly enough that equates to exactly 3p/mile but would drop to over half if I could get on to cheap rate.There is a reason why everyone, Jaguar included, is continuing to invest in new ICEs, while Eco-Trump is heading towards bankruptcy as his undercapitalised company gets a reputation for turning out catastrophically badly-built products that depreciate horrendously.
I have come close to buying an XJ on numerous occasions over many years but it's never quite been the right car. One day I shall, and it will be a V8. You will pluck the keys to my ICE cars out of my cold dead hands before you catch me in an EV. Not only do I hate the cars, I also despise the smug know-it-alls who drive the blasted things. Well, it's their cash, and such fools are easily parted from their money. I prefer to drive engaging, rewarding cars that I know will go up in value...
I think you can currently get 5p/kWh, which would be great!
But yeah sorry you got me. Did I mention that I'm vegan too and a member of Greenpeace and the local recycling club. I'll post my badges up sometime.
Besides, what's with the 'fools and cash remark'. You're not paying attention as we're most definitely not parting with any cash. That's the point innit!?
Edited by SOL111 on Sunday 7th July 08:46
Even if your fuel costs are that low, the cars are eye-wateringly expensive to buy, suffer catastrophic depreciation even by the standards of the luxury saloon sector, and within a decade are fit only for scrap - except the batteries aren't recyclable!
As synthetic petroleum becomes more and more viable, BEVs will fall by the wayside - they'll become regarded as we view the wankel rotary fad of the 60s and 70s. Everyone was rushing to adopt the new technology which promised to be so much cleaner and more efficient... until the reality came back to bite them on the ass, driving NSU out of business and into the hands of Audi, nearly bankrupting Citroen, and burning several others (including GM) to the tune of a lot of money. As with Mazda and the wankel, some will persist with the battery EV - but the day that BEV sales exceed those of ICE cars, I shall eat my proverbial hat, be very cross indeed, and have my ICE cars fitted with the loudest exhausts and induction systems money can buy. If petrol propulsion ever becomes endangered (which it won't), we may as well remind people why it was great, and sound is a big part of that. That's one reason why the E-XJ is such a mistake. Big Jags have always sounded brilliant. The old XK6 in the Mk.7/8/9 and Mk10/420G then the XJ6, the V12 in everything from the S1 to the X305, the AJ6/AJ16 in the XJ40/X300 XJ6/XJR, and three generations of snarling V8s... all great sounding engines... even the Duratec and AJ-V8 derived V6s in the more recent XJs sounded good. Hell, the TDV6 isn't a bad-sounding unit for a diseasel! Now, all you will get is a muted whine... well, bugger that!
Thank God for the Americans and their ongoing love of a proper V8. Mopar doing increasingly silly things with the modern Hemi, Ford squeezing ever more power and RPM out of the wondrous Coyote (partly Jaguar-designed!), GM continues with the LS/LT family...
If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...
As synthetic petroleum becomes more and more viable, BEVs will fall by the wayside - they'll become regarded as we view the wankel rotary fad of the 60s and 70s. Everyone was rushing to adopt the new technology which promised to be so much cleaner and more efficient... until the reality came back to bite them on the ass, driving NSU out of business and into the hands of Audi, nearly bankrupting Citroen, and burning several others (including GM) to the tune of a lot of money. As with Mazda and the wankel, some will persist with the battery EV - but the day that BEV sales exceed those of ICE cars, I shall eat my proverbial hat, be very cross indeed, and have my ICE cars fitted with the loudest exhausts and induction systems money can buy. If petrol propulsion ever becomes endangered (which it won't), we may as well remind people why it was great, and sound is a big part of that. That's one reason why the E-XJ is such a mistake. Big Jags have always sounded brilliant. The old XK6 in the Mk.7/8/9 and Mk10/420G then the XJ6, the V12 in everything from the S1 to the X305, the AJ6/AJ16 in the XJ40/X300 XJ6/XJR, and three generations of snarling V8s... all great sounding engines... even the Duratec and AJ-V8 derived V6s in the more recent XJs sounded good. Hell, the TDV6 isn't a bad-sounding unit for a diseasel! Now, all you will get is a muted whine... well, bugger that!
Thank God for the Americans and their ongoing love of a proper V8. Mopar doing increasingly silly things with the modern Hemi, Ford squeezing ever more power and RPM out of the wondrous Coyote (partly Jaguar-designed!), GM continues with the LS/LT family...
If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...
Even if your fuel costs are that low, the cars are eye-wateringly expensive to buy
BMW M5 cost £89,640
Model S Performance costs £85500
M3 cost £55 925
Tesla model 3 performance cost £48950
suffer catastrophic depreciation even by the standards of the luxury saloon sector,
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/12/tesla-model-s...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/24/tesla-model-3...
And within a decade are fit only for scrap - except the batteries aren't recyclable!
BMW warranty ends after 3 years, tesla battery warranty is good for 8. In fact there isnt yet a model S out of warranty.
And the batteries can be recycled
As synthetic petroleum becomes more and more viable, BEVs will fall by the wayside
You are insane if you think that.
but the day that BEV sales exceed those of ICE cars, I shall eat my proverbial hat,
Make it a real hat and have it ready for 2025.
I'm not even reading the rest of your drivel now.
BMW M5 cost £89,640
Model S Performance costs £85500
M3 cost £55 925
Tesla model 3 performance cost £48950
suffer catastrophic depreciation even by the standards of the luxury saloon sector,
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/12/tesla-model-s...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/24/tesla-model-3...
And within a decade are fit only for scrap - except the batteries aren't recyclable!
BMW warranty ends after 3 years, tesla battery warranty is good for 8. In fact there isnt yet a model S out of warranty.
And the batteries can be recycled
As synthetic petroleum becomes more and more viable, BEVs will fall by the wayside
You are insane if you think that.
but the day that BEV sales exceed those of ICE cars, I shall eat my proverbial hat,
Make it a real hat and have it ready for 2025.
I'm not even reading the rest of your drivel now.
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