RE: Electric Jaguar XJ confirmed for 2020
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...
Thats all great and go for it, there is nothing stopping you from doing any of that, but its got to do with the next XJ been an EV how?Unless you think you can persuade Jaguar to turn the XJ into a Hellcat rival by posting random thoughts on the internet your simply wasting your time.
If you want big combustion engine cars to survive go and buy a brand new M5 or AMG etc, show manufactures people are willing to spend £60k+ on a big engine saloon rather than am EV.
Don't just rant, as the saying goes talk is cheap.
Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 7th July 09:54
gangzoom said:
RoverP6B said:
If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...
Thats all great and go for it, there is nothing stopping you from doing any of that, but its got to do with the next XJ been an EV how?https://youtu.be/pice2a_iHz4?t=113
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm7a8vYgoWk
RobDickinson said:
He'd get thrashed in the v8 anyhow.
https://youtu.be/pice2a_iHz4?t=113
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm7a8vYgoWk
Thats actually quite hilarious, all that noise, effort and all it does is go backwards. Reminds me of my toddler having a tantrum.https://youtu.be/pice2a_iHz4?t=113
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm7a8vYgoWk
Jaguar has made a great decision making the XJ electric, effortless progress/speed, cannot wait.
I reckon electrification will suit the XJ, massive refinement and the feeling of being shoved by an unseen force, exactly what they have always been aspiring to.
Uncivilised ? P6B, have you been in a Tesla ? the powertrain is about as civilised as you get, it can, if you feel the need, sling all your internal organs to the back of your chest cavity if you want uncivilised, but in normal usage it is, for all intents and puposes, silent with eerie smoothness.
Its what Rolls Royce have always been aiming for, some people really like a lack of drama, noise and vibration, you bought a BMW seven series with a V12, and having driven a fair few seven series, they are pretty devoid of feedback from the drivetrain most of the time.
There is a lot of "I" in the EV debates on here, there are seven billion odd humans on the planet, and despite the disagreements on here we are generally from similar backgrounds with similar interests. We need to think a bit bigger than our little subculture, petrolheads are a minority, I mean genuine ones, not people who like cars a bit and watch Top Gear sometimes. So there are lots of different types of folks, with money to buy an EV who arent like us, with different motivations and desires, whether I like it or not, statistically is not very important.
For example, Chinese Businessmen might be gagging for a chauffeur driven electic Jaguar Saloon, they arent bothered about engine notes, they dont even drive it but they appreciate serenity, it would also make a superlative funeral car and could be perfect for airport transfers to and from posh hotels in Hong Kong or Kuala Lumpur.
.
Uncivilised ? P6B, have you been in a Tesla ? the powertrain is about as civilised as you get, it can, if you feel the need, sling all your internal organs to the back of your chest cavity if you want uncivilised, but in normal usage it is, for all intents and puposes, silent with eerie smoothness.
Its what Rolls Royce have always been aiming for, some people really like a lack of drama, noise and vibration, you bought a BMW seven series with a V12, and having driven a fair few seven series, they are pretty devoid of feedback from the drivetrain most of the time.
There is a lot of "I" in the EV debates on here, there are seven billion odd humans on the planet, and despite the disagreements on here we are generally from similar backgrounds with similar interests. We need to think a bit bigger than our little subculture, petrolheads are a minority, I mean genuine ones, not people who like cars a bit and watch Top Gear sometimes. So there are lots of different types of folks, with money to buy an EV who arent like us, with different motivations and desires, whether I like it or not, statistically is not very important.
For example, Chinese Businessmen might be gagging for a chauffeur driven electic Jaguar Saloon, they arent bothered about engine notes, they dont even drive it but they appreciate serenity, it would also make a superlative funeral car and could be perfect for airport transfers to and from posh hotels in Hong Kong or Kuala Lumpur.
.
gangzoom said:
RoverP6B said:
it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
You haven't actually driven an EV have you??The throttle response of a Nissan Leaf makes a BMW M3 feel like your trying to modulate the BMWs engine by telegram.
Combustion engines are already dead for 'sports' cars. .
Edited by T-195 on Sunday 7th July 13:30
T-195 said:
gangzoom said:
RoverP6B said:
it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
You haven't actually driven an EV have you??The throttle response of a Nissan Leaf makes a BMW M3 feel like your trying to modulate the BMWs engine by telegram.
Combustion engines are already dead for 'sports' cars. .
Edited by T-195 on Sunday 7th July 13:30
There is no scientific reason why batteries wont get smaller and lighter, like anything with intensive development, improvements happen. Look at computers, Moores law regarding processors and how video cards get more and more powerful, when there is a significant need to be fulfilled in any market there is always someone keen to provide a solution. Batteries used to be huge and heavy lead acid ones, which have six times plus less energy density. Mobile phones needed better batteries than Nickel Cadmium they originally came with which was a driver for development but the EV battery question is a much, much bigger potential reward.
Ugly, no reason why they have to be ugly, Model S looks pretty much like any other big car, no reason why EV's cant be stunning looking, in fact the way motors and batteries are packaged in enforces much less in the way of constraints on the styling, trouble is we have pedestrian regs and stuff to limit imagination, the RX7 looked like it did due to the engine being rotary, Piston engines are big for the power produced compared to an electric motor.
Expensive, well, yes, but as things go on they will get cheaper like all tech does, plus its amazing how people pay some eye watering sums for ICE cars, gym car park earlier is full of 50 grand plus SUV's so cost doesnt seem to be a barrier for a lot of people if the product works for them and they want one.
T-195 said:
gangzoom said:
RoverP6B said:
it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
You haven't actually driven an EV have you??The throttle response of a Nissan Leaf makes a BMW M3 feel like your trying to modulate the BMWs engine by telegram.
Combustion engines are already dead for 'sports' cars. .
RobDickinson said:
Bjorn just done nearly 2800km in 24 hours in a model 3 but yeah no good for long distance trips.
Even assuming "nearly 2800" is actually "2750" that's an average speed of over 70 mph. While such a thing was achievable with an internal combustion engine and considerable effort back in the heady days of the 1970s and the original Cannonball Baker Sea-to-Shining-Sea Memorial Trophy Dash, that's such a blatant lie with a Model 3 in 2019 that I don't know why I'm even bothering to type this.RoverP6B said:
Meanwhile, in the real world, charging infrastructure is inadequate to support even the miniscule numbers of BEVs we have on the road already.
Not true. This article is worth a read about the current charging infrastructure in the UK and what to expect going forward.RoverP6B said:
Teslas just aren't practical for seriously long-distance touring, and they need recharging en-route. The charging network is fragile and hopelessly inadequate (not to mention that Tesla has a monopoly over much of it).
ICE cars also need re-filling en-route. Of course Tesla monopolise their own charging network. It's a USP that they use to steer people toward their products. Other charging is available though, see the article above. Regarding practicality for touring, here's a real world UK test of touring ability. Issues encountered - nothing of significance. There are also examples in this thread of PH'rs regularly using Teslas on long European jaunts.RoverP6B said:
Also, the XJ has always been about more than just wafting. Five generations of XJRs, not to mention that the classic XJ6s and XJ12s could be had with a manual gearbox... it is a real "owner driver sports saloon". Jaguar risk alienating a chunk of their core market if they don't offer a powerful driver-oriented ICE XJ.
I can't find production numbers broken down by market, engine or gearbox unfortunately. This is quick and dirty I know but it gives something of a feel for how people bought their XJs here in the UK. Cars currently for sale on Autotrader:Jaguar X351 (2010-2019)
Petrol: 37
Diesel: 340
Gearbox: All automatic
X350/X358 (2003-2009)
Petrol: 111
Diesel: 92
Gearbox: All automatic
X300 /X308(1994–2003)
Fuel: All petrol
Gearbox: All automatic
The option of a manual died with the X300 in 1997. I don't remember the press ever singing its praises or lamenting its passing either. It went into a few die hard XJR's, the rest were either poverty spec, cloth seat. low powered earlier XJ40's or oddball spec larger engined cars. It was never really the transmission of choice. If you turned up to a dealer in the late 90's looking to trade in your 4.0 manual you'd find the part exchange valuation shall we say, disagreeable.
So what is an XJ in the UK? Until the mid 2000s it was a creamy smooth six or eight cylinder petrol with a J-Gate. Then the government told us petrol was bad and diesel was good. So it became a six cylinder diesel, again with an auto. Different pumps but a common theme - ample, smooth, effortless power with none of that having to change your own gears nonsense.
An all electric XJ is just the next obvious step. Quiet, smooth, refined with plenty of shove.
RoverP6B said:
Electric motors deliver 100% torque at all times, we know that, but they're a blunt tool, one hit of power and they're done - rather like a turbodiesel in that respect
Which is exactly what in the majority of cases they will be replacing. Again, a good fit. Not sure what the issue is.RoverP6B said:
I have come close to buying an XJ on numerous occasions over many years but it's never quite been the right car. One day I shall, and it will be a V8. You will pluck the keys to my ICE cars out of my cold dead hands before you catch me in an EV.
So in half a decade of production you still haven't found an XJ that's been quite right for you. I'm spitballing here but maybe the XJ isn't the car for you after all. The NRA quote by the way is just solid gold.RoverP6B said:
Not only do I hate the cars, I also despise the smug know-it-alls who drive the blasted things.
Irrational hatred of inanimate objects. Irrational hatred of people you've never met. Interesting.RoverP6B said:
I prefer to drive engaging, rewarding cars that I know will go up in value...
Good for you. Pistonheads is a friendly and inclusive community. If you've got an interest in motoring in any it's of weird and wonderful guises you're more than welcome here. Despising other members simply because of differing viewpoints however, perhaps not so cool.RoverP6B said:
the cars are eye-wateringly expensive to buy, suffer catastrophic depreciation
That's pretty much every large luxury saloon, regardless of power plant. What will be very interesting to see is how Model 3 residuals stack up against the German ICE mid sized execs.RoverP6B said:
except the batteries aren't recyclable!
There is a lot of work being done in this field. A battery that’s not fit to be used in a car anymore isn’t actually dead. It can still hold a charge, just not one that will keep a car on the road long enough. These batteries can be re-purposed. Nissan are selling theirs for use in energy storage systems. They can be used to massively bring down the cost of domestic solar storage for example. Volkswagen currently recycles around half of all raw materials in its battery packs. The short-term goal is three-quarters, the long-term goal is 97%. RoverP6B said:
synthetic petroleum
mkay. Can you imagine how cool it would be to no longer be reliant on oil and gas? Or oil and gas companies? Or Russia? Or the Middle East? To generate most of the energy we use from renewable sources like wind and solar? Sustainability is a good thing surely?RoverP6B said:
That's one reason why the E-XJ is such a mistake. Big Jags have always sounded brilliant. The old XK6 in the Mk.7/8/9 and Mk10/420G then the XJ6, the V12 in everything from the S1 to the X305, the AJ6/AJ16 in the XJ40/X300 XJ6/XJR, and three generations of snarling V8s... all great sounding engines... even the Duratec and AJ-V8 derived V6s in the more recent XJs sounded good
At the risk of repeating myself, nobody in recent years in the UK has been buying big fruity sounding petrol XJs. They've been buying diesels.RoverP6B said:
Thank God for the Americans and their ongoing love of a proper V8.
Ah, America, where petrol is cheap and global warming doesn't exist. Where the President pursues a pro-fossil fuel agenda and openly ignores his own and the world's brightest scientists. Climate change? 'I don't believe it' says Trump. Yet again this year the US has pulled out of the G20 climate agreement and is not committed to delivering on its goals.Sales figures suggest the American public seem quite keen on the Model 3 though:
RoverP6B said:
If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...
Sounds like you're a muscle car guy at heart. So not really an XJ man at all then. FYI, once you've caught those Teslas in your Hellcat, chances are they'll likely both out-accelerate and out-handle you 
JLR chief executive Ralf Speth said:
The future of mobility is electric and, as a visionary British company, we are committed to making our next generation of zero-emission vehicles in the UK.
A British company steeped in automotive history. Facing the future head on with confidence and committed to building cars right here in the UK. Something to celebrate I'd say.Edited by B17NNS on Sunday 7th July 16:00
B17NNS said:
A British company steeped in automotive history. Facing the future head on with confidence and committed to building cars right here in the UK. Something to celebrate I'd say.
Frankly, I'm amazed more people on a mainly UK based forum haven't come to this conclusion, instead choosing to go down the anti-EV route. I really cannot wait to see what it'll look like, as far as I know Jag hasn't released a single preview image, 2020 isn't far off, so it'll a genuine surprise when it is finally revealed.
Meanwhile at BMW
BMW CEO Harald Krüger has resigned his post, citing recent, “enormous changes, which have brought about more transformation than in the previous 30 years.”
BMW CEO Harald Krüger has resigned his post, citing recent, “enormous changes, which have brought about more transformation than in the previous 30 years.”
BenjiS said:
Because Jaguar XJs are so small, light, attractive and cheap...
They're half a ton lighter than the lumpen, lardarsed Model S. You'd have thought losing a big supercharged V8 and heavy automatic gearbox would save weight, but apparently not......and at least the Jag won't rust away, unlike the Tesla.
Sure, you can get a Tesla cheaper than an M5, but once you've spent a fortune on corrosion-proofing, a respray and a lot of refitting of interior parts and body panels to get it up to an acceptable standard of quality, you're going to have over a hundred grand in it. Then the battery starts dying - and, despite what the Eco-Trump fanboys say, Tesla batteries can and often DO fail!
Yes, the Tesla is naffing quick up to 100mph or so, but brutish straight line acceleration is all it's good for. It's far too heavy, with lumpen handling and a crashy ride.
Also, who wants a car, even a luxobarge, which totally isolates them from the drivetrain? XJs have never done that, and neither does my 760, which has bucketloads of steering feel, handles and rides brilliantly for what is admittedly a heavy car, and makes a lovely fruity snarl under load. Same engine in a Phantom (albeit bored and stroked), it isn't silent, just unintrusive.
Yes, fleet buyers buy diesels, XJs have been mainly diesel for the last 15 years because of the idiotic CO2-based VED scale that completely ignored other more important factors like NOx and soot particulates... but particularly in the US, the V8 has sold well. At 567bhp it's far from all done - there are Jag/Range Rover owners running 700bhp on the 5-litre supercharged engine with a pulley swap and remap. Jaguar would be foolish to neglect the part of the market that demands a V8. Who knows, with the new I6 a reality, maybe an Ingenium V12 could also happen?! That would be a satisfying (and well-deserved) slap in the face to Elon and the ecofascists and Green Marxists!
Edited by RoverP6B on Sunday 7th July 21:51
RoverP6B said:
- there are Jag/Range Rover owners running 700bhp on the 5-litre supercharged engine with a pulley swap and remap.
No there aren't. I developed the Aj133 for Jaguar, and i can tell you that certain systems are already pushed even at the standard output of just over 500 bhp, and extremely marginal at the 575 rating for the SVR product lines (which for example include heavily revised chargecooling systems to support the additional power)Sure, i bet you could "measure" 700 bhp on a shonky set of aftermarket chassis rolls (with enough fudging of the figures...) but no way is a standard AJ133 with a pulley swap and a remap making anything like a real 700 bhp......
Max_Torque said:
RoverP6B said:
- there are Jag/Range Rover owners running 700bhp on the 5-litre supercharged engine with a pulley swap and remap.
No there aren't. I developed the Aj133 for Jaguar, and i can tell you that certain systems are already pushed even at the standard output of just over 500 bhp, and extremely marginal at the 575 rating for the SVR product lines (which for example include heavily revised chargecooling systems to support the additional power)Sure, i bet you could "measure" 700 bhp on a shonky set of aftermarket chassis rolls (with enough fudging of the figures...) but no way is a standard AJ133 with a pulley swap and a remap making anything like a real 700 bhp......
Max_Torque said:
No there aren't. I developed the Aj133 for Jaguar, and i can tell you that certain systems are already pushed even at the standard output of just over 500 bhp, and extremely marginal at the 575 rating for the SVR product lines (which for example include heavily revised chargecooling systems to support the additional power)
Sure, i bet you could "measure" 700 bhp on a shonky set of aftermarket chassis rolls (with enough fudging of the figures...) but no way is a standard AJ133 with a pulley swap and a remap making anything like a real 700 bhp......
Sure, i bet you could "measure" 700 bhp on a shonky set of aftermarket chassis rolls (with enough fudging of the figures...) but no way is a standard AJ133 with a pulley swap and a remap making anything like a real 700 bhp......
- mic drop*
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff