RE: Electric Jaguar XJ confirmed for 2020

[xxChrisxx]

Cupramax said:

Pleased to hear Jag investing in the UK but can’t help but thinking they should be electrifying other models than the XJ. I mean does anyone even buy big exec barges anymore? The world and his grandmother is buying SUV derivatives and family hatchbacks they go and electrify the XJ. I could understand a bit more if they did the XF.

Less risk to do development on something expensive and low volume.

1. More profit in larger luxury cars, so they are better able to absorb regular development costs.
2. Cock something up, you can use that profit headroom to throw cash at problems.
3. Really cock up. Pushing back a low volume programme is less expensive.

All the learning can then be applied to a higher volume product.

Edited by xxChrisxx on Sunday 7th July 23:10

[J4CKO]

RoverP6B said:

BenjiS said:

Because Jaguar XJs are so small, light, attractive and cheap...

They're half a ton lighter than the lumpen, lardarsed Model S. You'd have thought losing a big supercharged V8 and heavy automatic gearbox would save weight, but apparently not...

Edited by RoverP6B on Sunday 7th July 21:51

They lose some bits but gain a honking great battery pack, which I expect will, over time get a bit smaller as the energy density is improved and the gains shared between range and weight loss.

Also, did you not post a readers rides thread fairly recently detailing your purchase of a BMW Seven series, of the E65 vintage, fitted with a V12 engine ? nothing wrong with that but just remind me how much a vehicle like that weighs compared to certain "lumpen, lardarsed" Tesla ?

With cars like that, weight isnt really that important, certainly not like it is with a sports car, having been in Teslas, the drivetrain makes short work of moving the thing and flatters that the car is lighter than it is, two tonnes plus has no business moving that quickly, its other worldly. Obviously you feel it in the corners but they arent a racing car, like every luxo barge isnt . People managed with a Discovery 3 that weight 2.5 tonnes almost, dont try and bench press it and you are fine I find.

[RobDickinson]

Most of the inefficiency in having a heavy car goes away with an ev it's not much of a disadvantage as you get that energy back

[RoverP6B]

Yes, I have a big heavy V12 barge, but it handles like a big E39 - in some respects it's even sharper, the steering is quicker and it feels very nimble, but that isn't the primary reason for me buying it.

The point is that the Tesla is an extremely heavy blunt instrument, brutishly fast in a straight line but, in an attempt to make such a beast handle, it has been robbed of the ride quality Jaguar buyers demand.

An AJ133 with both upper and lower pulleys swapped and a suitably aggressive tune will produce 700bhp. Plenty of XFRs, XKRs, XJRs etc pulling 600rwhp, factor in transmission losses and you're looking at 700 at the crank. With the closely-related Ford Coyote now pushing nearly 500bhp naturally-aspirated (official output is massively understated), compared to 380bhp for the N/A AJ133, and the Shelby supercharged version making 750bhp, on what is a very similar engine, with the same block architecture, same bore spacing, bore and stroke differing by no more than half a millimetre, the biggest difference being the firing order... there's plenty of life in the old dog yet - God alone knows why JLR want to ditch it in favour of the BMW N63 turbo unit.

[RobDickinson]

The G11 v12 is over 2000kg

And the m760Li xdrive is 2295kg

You are full of bullst.

[RoverP6B]

Good job mine isn't encumbered with AWD or turbos or intercoolers... yeah, it's a LWB, which adds some weight, but it's got a lovely silky naturally-aspirated V12 and the front wheels are tasked solely with steering and keeping the sump off the tarmac, all 439bhp goes straight to the rear.

A Tesla will murder it to 100 or possibly even a little beyond that.

I don't care.

It's about a sense of connection with the road, the feedback it gives me, the sound... muted it may be (I'd like to free up a bit more noise), but there is no substitute for the howl of my V12, or the snarl of my M62 V8s.

I can see how, as a second or third car, a Leaf or Zoe might make sense for shopping and the school run... but for any serious driving, be it going for a B-road blast or long-distance touring, the BEV will always be a poor substitute for a proper ICE car.

Klaus Frölich is right. Petrol engines will be manufactured for at least another 30 years. While governments pandering to the Green lobby are pushing electrification, the consumer demand simply isn't there.

[gangzoom]

RoverP6B said:

...and at least the Jag won't rust away, unlike the Tesla.

Because the aluminium in a Model S is different from the aluminium used in a Jag??

Your keep on bringing up Tesla in a topic about the next XJ seems rather odd, its like when you date someone who keeps on going on about their EX, you know there's some unresolved internal conflicts deep down.

Jaguar are going electric, keep ranting as much as you like but its something your going have to accept.

[Krikkit]

RoverP6B said:

There's plenty of life in the old dog yet - God alone knows why JLR want to ditch it in favour of the BMW N63 turbo unit.

Eh? You mean their own I6 engine developed from the Ingenium?

Edited by Krikkit on Monday 8th July 10:34

[Wacky Racer]

J4CKO said:

There is no scientific reason why batteries wont get smaller and lighter, like anything with intensive development, improvements happen. Look at computers, Moores law regarding processors and how video cards get more and more powerful, when there is a significant need to be fulfilled in any market there is always someone keen to provide a solution. Batteries used to be huge and heavy lead acid ones, which have six times plus less energy density.

This. Think how big a mobile phone was in 1980...like a brick.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[otolith]

Jaguar to develop new powertrain which will make them quicker, quieter, smoother and cheaper to run. Oh no, the sky is falling in.

[T-195]

otolith said:

Jaguar to develop new powertrain which will make them quicker, quieter, smoother and cheaper to run. Oh no, the sky is falling in.

I certainly haven't claimed the sky is falling in, just asking why as nobody is buying EVs.

[rscott]

RoverP6B said:

BenjiS said:

Because Jaguar XJs are so small, light, attractive and cheap...

They're half a ton lighter than the lumpen, lardarsed Model S. You'd have thought losing a big supercharged V8 and heavy automatic gearbox would save weight, but apparently not...

...and at least the Jag won't rust away, unlike the Tesla.

Sure, you can get a Tesla cheaper than an M5, but once you've spent a fortune on corrosion-proofing, a respray and a lot of refitting of interior parts and body panels to get it up to an acceptable standard of quality, you're going to have over a hundred grand in it. Then the battery starts dying - and, despite what the Eco-Trump fanboys say, Tesla batteries can and often DO fail!

Yes, the Tesla is naffing quick up to 100mph or so, but brutish straight line acceleration is all it's good for. It's far too heavy, with lumpen handling and a crashy ride.

Also, who wants a car, even a luxobarge, which totally isolates them from the drivetrain? XJs have never done that, and neither does my 760, which has bucketloads of steering feel, handles and rides brilliantly for what is admittedly a heavy car, and makes a lovely fruity snarl under load. Same engine in a Phantom (albeit bored and stroked), it isn't silent, just unintrusive.

Yes, fleet buyers buy diesels, XJs have been mainly diesel for the last 15 years because of the idiotic CO2-based VED scale that completely ignored other more important factors like NOx and soot particulates... but particularly in the US, the V8 has sold well. At 567bhp it's far from all done - there are Jag/Range Rover owners running 700bhp on the 5-litre supercharged engine with a pulley swap and remap. Jaguar would be foolish to neglect the part of the market that demands a V8. Who knows, with the new I6 a reality, maybe an Ingenium V12 could also happen?! That would be a satisfying (and well-deserved) slap in the face to Elon and the ecofascists and Green Marxists!

Edited by RoverP6B on Sunday 7th July 21:51

Hmm. Tesla batteries have an 8 year warranty, far longer than the drivetrain on any ICE vehicle.

Judging by your PH garage, you like to buy old barges when they're worth less than 10% of their original list price. So you're definitely not the target market for any luxury car manufacturer, at most you're useful for buying the old part exchanges they can't sell on their own forecourts.

[B17NNS]

RoverP6B said:

If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...

Hellcat vs Model 3

T-195 said:

I certainly haven't claimed the sky is falling in, just asking why as nobody is buying EVs.

People are buying them.

US Midsize Premium Sedan Sales (January 2018 - June 2019)

Vehicle	Sales
Tesla Model 3	193,987
Mercedes-Benz C-Class	81,890
BMW 3 Series	65,736
Audi A4	46,720
Lexus IS	31,289
Jaguar XE	7,112

[T-195]

B17NNS said:

RoverP6B said:

If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...

Hellcat vs Model 3

T-195 said:

I certainly haven't claimed the sky is falling in, just asking why as nobody is buying EVs.

People are buying them.

US Midsize Premium Sedan Sales (January 2018 - June 2019)

Vehicle	Sales
Tesla Model 3	193,987
Mercedes-Benz C-Class	81,890
BMW 3 Series	65,736
Audi A4	46,720
Lexus IS	31,289
Jaguar XE	7,112

EVs make up around 1% of cars on UK roads.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Wacky Racer said:

This. Think how big a mobile phone was in 1980...like a brick.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

more importantly its a tech market with insane potential for growth, 100s of billions potentially untapped over the next 10 years

how many battery factories is elon building?

[rscott]

T-195 said:

B17NNS said:

RoverP6B said:

If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...

Hellcat vs Model 3

T-195 said:

I certainly haven't claimed the sky is falling in, just asking why as nobody is buying EVs.

People are buying them.

US Midsize Premium Sedan Sales (January 2018 - June 2019)

Vehicle	Sales
Tesla Model 3	193,987
Mercedes-Benz C-Class	81,890
BMW 3 Series	65,736
Audi A4	46,720
Lexus IS	31,289
Jaguar XE	7,112

EVs make up around 1% of cars on UK roads.

Sales are constrained by lack of availability. Hyundai and Kia sold this year's allocation within weeks of launch, for example.

[J4CKO]

T-195 said:

B17NNS said:

RoverP6B said:

If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...

Hellcat vs Model 3

T-195 said:

I certainly haven't claimed the sky is falling in, just asking why as nobody is buying EVs.

People are buying them.

US Midsize Premium Sedan Sales (January 2018 - June 2019)

Vehicle	Sales
Tesla Model 3	193,987
Mercedes-Benz C-Class	81,890
BMW 3 Series	65,736
Audi A4	46,720
Lexus IS	31,289
Jaguar XE	7,112

EVs make up around 1% of cars on UK roads.

Point being ?

One percent isnt "nobody", it is still very early in the lifecycle of the EV as a consumer product, as the offerings get better the momentum will grow, most folk are aware of them but are put off by the cost, range or charging opportunities, as that changes, uptake will increase exponentially.

The car didnt replace the horse overnight, diesel appeared as a more mainstream choice in the late eighties but took maybe fifteen years before it was the default choice in a lot of cases.

[B17NNS]

T-195 said:

EVs make up around 1% of cars on UK roads.

Not sure I follow. Your question was why are Jaguar going electric. There's a multitude of reasons but those sales figures alone should go a long way to answering your question. In the second part of your post you said that nobody was buying electric. Again, same figures suggest otherwise.

Someone on that list is currently Apple. I don't imagine any of them want to be BlackBerry or Nokia.

[anonymous-user]

T-195 said:

B17NNS said:

RoverP6B said:

If I was in a LHD country, of all big saloons in production now, the one I'd actually buy is the Dodge Charger Hellcat. Stick an obnoxiously loud straight-pipe cat-back exhaust on it, do a pulley swap on the blower and remap, then go hunting Teslas...

Hellcat vs Model 3

T-195 said:

I certainly haven't claimed the sky is falling in, just asking why as nobody is buying EVs.

People are buying them.

US Midsize Premium Sedan Sales (January 2018 - June 2019)

Vehicle	Sales
Tesla Model 3	193,987
Mercedes-Benz C-Class	81,890
BMW 3 Series	65,736
Audi A4	46,720
Lexus IS	31,289
Jaguar XE	7,112

EVs make up around 1% of cars on UK roads.

Those figures need context, as a total of the overall market as i imagine the SUV / Pick-Up and Camry market outweigh them.

According to http://fordauthority.com/2019/01/a-ford-f-150-pick... Ford sold 900,000 F-x trucks in 2018 alone, so more than double that whole segment managed in 18 months,

EV is coming and as a run around / cheap commuter it'll be perfect, imagine a city centre where thousands of cars aren't idling spewing out their fumes.

Rather than focus on private use, it should be the buses and HGVs! Although i suppose those technologies will be proven and scaled up.

All in all, i don't think EVs will replace petrol for fun / enjoyment, but the day-day grind once range and infrastructure is enabled, why not.

[oldtimer2]

Earlier someone asked how many I-PACE had been sold. In the calendar year to May 2019, total sales were 7,456; 1,594 were sold in May.

Recently I watched a YouTube video by Hubnut describing his experience driving the car on a 800 mile trip from Hereford to Scotland and back. He liked the car but found the charging network unreliable and declared it unfit for purpose in its present condition. My eldest son looked at the I-PACE for business use but concluded that it (or rather the charging network) was not yet ready for prime time. He bought a Hybrid RR Sport instead.

As for the XJ replacement, that is a "brave" decision given JLR's current circumstances. No doubt an EV Rover based on the same platform will follow. Perhaps Castle Bromwich is earmarked for all JLR's future BEVs over the next few years. However they can hedge their bet by offering the I-6 hybrid as well.