RE: VW ID.R breaks outright Goodwood record
Discussion
Crafty_ said:
And the 12th item is someone who will can't stand anything other but positive remarks about EVs has a rant to make himself feel better..
And yet, those ^^ people generally speaking, are quite open to the real world flaws of EVs. I certainly am! They are not a visceral as ICEs, which if you're a "car person" could be an issue, today they are expensive, in limited supply, and have a relatively short range, compared to state of the art ICEs.1) Boring - yes possibly, but lots of people drive diesel nissans and toyotas, which are also very boring, so if you drive one of those, you can drive an EV
2) Expensive - yes, but lots of cars are expensive. People spend £60k on something like an M3 and sit in traffic at 3mph for 99.9% of their time. And of course, the costs of EVs are falling, and falling fast
3) Limited supply - definitely, but this is a temporary issue, as more and more resource is pushed behind EVs,t hey will be available in ever increasing numbers
4) Range - more of a "mental issue". EVs currently can't do 600 miles on one charge. However, the main reason people need long range is because this is what they are used too. Most EV owners i speak too get over their "range anxiety" very quickly, and most would not go back to an ICE. Yes, some people do need to drive long distances without stopping, but in reality, that is a small segment of the market, especially in the UK
5) Unresolved, incomplete charging network - probably the biggest issue really, the one that people think is a problem. However, it's really not that hard to sort out your charging requirements, and for most people, certainly the people buying EVs today as second cars for local commuting, the vast majority (>98% in terms of energy transferred) is done at home. The current network is actually well underused, and it is getting bigger all the time. A step change is probably needed in terms of payment logistics, so a std payment card (debit/credit) can be used at any charger imo.
So yes, EVs DO have issues, but i can't see any particular issue that is really either unsolvable, can't be resolved with some education and explanation, or that in any way isn't massively outweighed by the enormousness positive advantages an EV brings to everyday private transit.
DoubleD said:
RDMcG said:
I( saw this at the Nürburgring when it did its 6:05 run.
I am a confirmed IC fan and have been forever, but I have no doubt that this is the future. I am aware of all of the flaws, faults,challenges, but if you were driving a car in 1905 you would have had many people laughing at its inefficiency.
For now I will enjoy my IC cars, but I know its the closing stages on the era.
It sure was fun, though.......years and years of it.
Electric cars have been around for as long as petrol carsI am a confirmed IC fan and have been forever, but I have no doubt that this is the future. I am aware of all of the flaws, faults,challenges, but if you were driving a car in 1905 you would have had many people laughing at its inefficiency.
For now I will enjoy my IC cars, but I know its the closing stages on the era.
It sure was fun, though.......years and years of it.
People mention milk floats, they did about 20 mph, were silent and slow, mostly down to the huge lead acid batteries, They weighed over two tonnes and had a range of 60 to 80 miles.
There were EV's before the Tesla arrived, but again they were saddled with heavy lead acid batteries, Tesla uses Lithium Ion batteries that produce 254 wh/kg where the Lead Acid batteries used on past EV's and Milk floats were about 40 wh/kg, so over six times more power per weight.
This is why EV's were not popular, there was always blokes in sheds electrifying various cars but the weight was huge and the range terrible, even by modern EV standards. Companies were busy building ICE cars, there was little environmental lobby and the tech just wasnt there, it still isnt if we are honest, but as it has always been it is the batteries, not any other aspect of the EV.
Most folk dont really care about engagement and involvement, they want economy, some performance, safety, reliability and a degree of desirability, they uptake of diesels with their economy has shown that most dont really care about what powers a vehicle if it can cover all the bases.
Batteries are being developed right now that will easily double the Tesla's 254 wh/kg figure, with talk of four times and beyond being possible and this is the absolute key thing, the current batteries dont provide enough range given charging can be an issue, but when higher capacity battery tech comes to market, that is when the EV has properly come of age and is fully viable.
Is anyone actually betting that the battery Tesla has now cannot be bettered ? So many seem to think EV development has peaked with a seven year old model. Also, the new Solid State batteries being developed are a lot safer.
I can see a time coming, not that far of where there EV's with 500/600 mile ranges, that would mean, for my usage, I would have to charge it once a month, even if you dont have off road parking, having that kind of range means you arent having to charge regularly.
But, still dont really want one, that is my choice, I am still interested and excited to see how it pans out. Mustang or M4 next for me though.
J4CKO said:
Mustang or M4 next for me though.
Similar state here, with our i3 now doing daily duties (and btw it's a really fun car to drive, honestly, far more fun that a typical VW diesel for example!) we are looking at getting rid of the 335d and replacing it with something more focused! (i'd really like an M3 CS, but the prices are still a little bit too "ooof )Max_Torque said:
J4CKO said:
Mustang or M4 next for me though.
Similar state here, with our i3 now doing daily duties (and btw it's a really fun car to drive, honestly, far more fun that a typical VW diesel for example!) we are looking at getting rid of the 335d and replacing it with something more focused! (i'd really like an M3 CS, but the prices are still a little bit too "ooof )Vaud said:
robsprocket said:
Really? Lets see it do an F1 race distance around Silverstone without refuelling (battery change). lol.
But that isn't the test. It's a hill climb which has always allowed exotic machinery. On your logic, let's see a Jedi with it's 1/2 gallon tank do an f1 distance. Draexin said:
p.s. it's Romain Dumas, not Roman 
Ha, amazing. It wasn't even a typo either, because 'Roman' appears at least twice! The complete idiot who wrote this couldn't even be bothered to check the spelling of the guy's name - a man who has featured in PH quite a few times in the last year or so due to his exploits in the various iterations of this car.Piss-tonheads people, you should be utterly ashamed of your incompetence. It's beyond a joke.
By the way the car should have broken the record. If it hadn't then it would have been quite embarrassing for VW. Two things are clear from the side-by-side video: the road surface is much smoother these days and the VW builds a time buffer in the sprint off the line that the F1 car eats into over the rest of the run.
I haven't got a downer on EVs infact I look forward to the performance bikes having an EV option, cars on the other hand I can't be fussed with maybe lack of options and this record is from a technical point of view impressive I e the engineering etc.
The pike peak record is way more impressive to me.
The pike peak record is way more impressive to me.
Petrus1983 said:
Serious question that I’ve always wondered - if as an example you took a standard Tesla - how long do they take to charge?
From a public “Supercharger”, around 200 miles range per hour, from a 3-phase installed charger in your house about 50 miles per hour, and from a 240v socket about 15 miles per hour. Rough numbers, with lots of other variables such as temperature, battery state and existing charge - the last few percent takes a lot longer than the rest of the battery. 
t. 85Carrera said:
What a ridiculous comment. You’ve obviously chosen to ignore:
1. The environmental consequences of mining the crap that goes in the batteries;
2. How the electricity they use has been produced; and
3. The environmental consequences of disposing of the crap in the batteries when they need replacing after less than 15 years.
4. And that’s ignoring the range issues which make them only suitable for a second/city car for most people ...
Tl;dr: questions possible disposal of 200-500kg of recyclable batteries at end of life - quietly accepts, rough 15 yr average, destroying (burning) 10'000-20'000kg of liquid matter (aka fuel) and gasifying it into 23'000-46'000 kg of CO2. 1. The environmental consequences of mining the crap that goes in the batteries;
2. How the electricity they use has been produced; and
3. The environmental consequences of disposing of the crap in the batteries when they need replacing after less than 15 years.
4. And that’s ignoring the range issues which make them only suitable for a second/city car for most people ...
Long version:
1. 'Mining' oil is of course wholly unproblematic
2. At least you have a choice. Instead of setting fire to liquid materials and having 75% disappear as (mostly) unused heat
3. There is a good possibility most of that 200-500kg will be recycled, when the time comes. In the mean time (15yrs), an ICE car has burt (destroyed forever) in the region of 10000-20000kg of liquid material and in the process transferrred it into the gas state combined with oxygen from our breathing air (minus how much?) into 23000kg-46000kg of gaseous CO2, corresponding to rougly a volume of 13000-26000 cubic metres of pure CO2, or diluted, doubling CO2 levels in rougly 32'000'000-64'000'000 cubic meters of ground level air, or double that in the atmosphere. For one car. There are one billion ICE cars on the palnet, give or take. This assuming perfectly clean burning (exhaust pollition adds up too) and not taking in account the added water vapor that is actually also a greenhouse gas. Also, that fuel wasn't free either... °
4. Most people would actually do just fine for the huge majority of trips made. They are just scared to death for those few trips where they will have to recharge en route, being completely unfamiliar with the already existing charging infrastructure, the useful guidance available in the car nav and phone aps etc.
I'm by no way a big EV proponent, just allergic to one sided argumentation
As for city driving, a car itself is rediculous really, a twizy (roof), bikes, scooters, bicycles etc just make a lot more sense then building traffic jams with 2000kg machines moving 80kg humans at 10mph... With app based flexible mobility, you don't have to own the alternatives...
°did the calcs just now purely out of curiosity, feel free to redo them and perhaps correct them
Edited by Onehp on Sunday 7th July 01:17
Sandpit Steve said:
Petrus1983 said:
Serious question that I’ve always wondered - if as an example you took a standard Tesla - how long do they take to charge?
From a public “Supercharger”, around 200 miles range per hour, from a 3-phase installed charger in your house about 50 miles per hour, and from a 240v socket about 15 miles per hour. Rough numbers, with lots of other variables such as temperature, battery state and existing charge - the last few percent takes a lot longer than the rest of the battery. tr3a said:
How delightfully predictable.
EV's are just superior cars. The only things they don't do well is make brmm-brmm noises, burn chemicals inefficiently and poison us.
The don’t poison us.... just the people/children that dig up the chemicals that go into the batteries before they are shipped out of the DRC. That aside, it was an immense lap!EV's are just superior cars. The only things they don't do well is make brmm-brmm noises, burn chemicals inefficiently and poison us.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff