RE: Lotus unveils 2000hp, £2m Evija
Discussion
rockin said:
Meanwhile, Corvette has launched its new 490 bhp, V8, DCT, mid-engine sportscar - with a price that will start under $60,000 in USA.
And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread. And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ
rockin said:
Meanwhile, Corvette has launched its new 490 bhp, V8, DCT, mid-engine sportscar - with a price that will start under $60,000 in USA.
And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ
I'd be surprised if its £70k or under that in the UK. They seem to work out the UK price by Chevrolet UK buying the cars direct from dealers in the US at full retail and not the factory at trade prices, paying the same import costs a normal punter would pay to privately import the car, then adding some markup on top. And that is with the LHD model that has limited expenses to adapt to the UK market not a full blown RHD model.And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ
The C7 Stingray was £61,495, while in the US it was $51,995.
rockin said:
Meanwhile, Corvette has launched its new 490 bhp, V8, DCT, mid-engine sportscar - with a price that will start under $60,000 in USA.
And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ
Meanwhile Kia has launched the Soul EV about £30k in RHD and about as relevant as your post. And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.rockin said:
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.Is the point you are trying to make is that Lotus should have made a mid engined V8? If thats what you mean you should say it, that is a different discussion. My guess is they need to create the brand awareness and market first and that is what the Evija is for. (They probably still won't make a mid engined V8 though as the world is moving away from that.)
rockin said:
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.rockin said:
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.Tuna said:
As an aside, you crash into threads like this and dismiss other manufacturer's work - it comes across as either supremely arrogant or deeply unprofessional. Are you really surprised at the response it gets?
This new car uses motors and a battery i have consulted on, so it's not really "other peoples work".....My point, which people seem to ignore in favour of calling me an idiot, is that Lotus themselves have made significant claims for this project, but that those claims, imo, don't necessarily stand scrutiny, and are mostly the usual marketing "hot air" at this point. It's quite correct to say that these days the powertrain is to a large degree the "easy bit" be that ICE or EV. In fact, should you visit any of the large OEs you will find something like 10 times the number of engineers working on EFC as on the PT!
No, my concern is that this (amazing) project is really just 'jumping on the bandwagon' of making a few, ultra expensive hyper cars to sell to a mere handful of the worlds richest, and as such isn't actually either that difficult, or utilising the historical core Lotus skills (which i don't actually exist really any longer, because they were skills from the past, rather than from today, and you'll note that Lotus have actually bought in all the core skills (WAE=battery, IP=Motors+inverters, Trans=Hewland, Tub=CPC) to build this car)
Don't get me wrong, this new car is amazing, but it isn't either a "new thing" or "a new future" (as yet).
So whilst it is impressive, it would be more impressive (to me) for Lotus to try to take up the very real challenge of re-inventing an affordable eSports car for the next generation. They did so with the Elise back in the late 1990's, taking a whole new approach to a low mass, relatively low cost platform, using OTS powertrain and components, packaged into a unique body. As EV powertrain parts continue to tumble in cost, and become ever more available, why not try to do that same trick again? Mazda sell loads of MX-5's, even if you could get 1% of that market i think it could be made to work :-)
Apart from you having contradicted yourself a bit. 
I sort of agree. These things are a flagship to demonstrate technology. EFI started in cars most people couldn't afford as did 16 valve heads, variable valve timing etc.
Its a showcase and a marketing exercise, if they sell some then thats good for Lotus, if it helps them with brand awareness so they can sell lots of new Elise and Evora replacements (which are bound to have EV's in the mix) then that's even better for Lotus. Plus a bit like chassis tuning, they can probably sell their expertise to other car makers.
I sort of agree. These things are a flagship to demonstrate technology. EFI started in cars most people couldn't afford as did 16 valve heads, variable valve timing etc.Its a showcase and a marketing exercise, if they sell some then thats good for Lotus, if it helps them with brand awareness so they can sell lots of new Elise and Evora replacements (which are bound to have EV's in the mix) then that's even better for Lotus. Plus a bit like chassis tuning, they can probably sell their expertise to other car makers.
Max_Torque said:
This new car uses motors and a battery i have consulted on, so it's not really "other peoples work".....
My point, which people seem to ignore in favour of calling me an idiot, is that Lotus themselves have made significant claims for this project, but that those claims, imo, don't necessarily stand scrutiny, and are mostly the usual marketing "hot air" at this point. It's quite correct to say that these days the powertrain is to a large degree the "easy bit" be that ICE or EV. In fact, should you visit any of the large OEs you will find something like 10 times the number of engineers working on EFC as on the PT!
No, my concern is that this (amazing) project is really just 'jumping on the bandwagon' of making a few, ultra expensive hyper cars to sell to a mere handful of the worlds richest, and as such isn't actually either that difficult, or utilising the historical core Lotus skills (which i don't actually exist really any longer, because they were skills from the past, rather than from today, and you'll note that Lotus have actually bought in all the core skills (WAE=battery, IP=Motors+inverters, Trans=Hewland, Tub=CPC) to build this car)
Don't get me wrong, this new car is amazing, but it isn't either a "new thing" or "a new future" (as yet).
So whilst it is impressive, it would be more impressive (to me) for Lotus to try to take up the very real challenge of re-inventing an affordable eSports car for the next generation. They did so with the Elise back in the late 1990's, taking a whole new approach to a low mass, relatively low cost platform, using OTS powertrain and components, packaged into a unique body. As EV powertrain parts continue to tumble in cost, and become ever more available, why not try to do that same trick again? Mazda sell loads of MX-5's, even if you could get 1% of that market i think it could be made to work :-)
Lotus celebrated the joint partnership with Williams Engineering some months before this car was announced. It's been no secret. My point, which people seem to ignore in favour of calling me an idiot, is that Lotus themselves have made significant claims for this project, but that those claims, imo, don't necessarily stand scrutiny, and are mostly the usual marketing "hot air" at this point. It's quite correct to say that these days the powertrain is to a large degree the "easy bit" be that ICE or EV. In fact, should you visit any of the large OEs you will find something like 10 times the number of engineers working on EFC as on the PT!
No, my concern is that this (amazing) project is really just 'jumping on the bandwagon' of making a few, ultra expensive hyper cars to sell to a mere handful of the worlds richest, and as such isn't actually either that difficult, or utilising the historical core Lotus skills (which i don't actually exist really any longer, because they were skills from the past, rather than from today, and you'll note that Lotus have actually bought in all the core skills (WAE=battery, IP=Motors+inverters, Trans=Hewland, Tub=CPC) to build this car)
Don't get me wrong, this new car is amazing, but it isn't either a "new thing" or "a new future" (as yet).
So whilst it is impressive, it would be more impressive (to me) for Lotus to try to take up the very real challenge of re-inventing an affordable eSports car for the next generation. They did so with the Elise back in the late 1990's, taking a whole new approach to a low mass, relatively low cost platform, using OTS powertrain and components, packaged into a unique body. As EV powertrain parts continue to tumble in cost, and become ever more available, why not try to do that same trick again? Mazda sell loads of MX-5's, even if you could get 1% of that market i think it could be made to work :-)
Cold said:
rockin said:
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.Max_Torque said:
So whilst it is impressive, it would be more impressive (to me) for Lotus to try to take up the very real challenge of re-inventing an affordable eSports car for the next generation. They did so with the Elise back in the late 1990's, taking a whole new approach to a low mass, relatively low cost platform, using OTS powertrain and components, packaged into a unique body. As EV powertrain parts continue to tumble in cost, and become ever more available, why not try to do that same trick again? Mazda sell loads of MX-5's, even if you could get 1% of that market i think it could be made to work :-)
Because although they tried that trick very successfully, it never made them enough money?They're doing what they're doing because they want to shift the perception of the brand. They don't want to be talked about in the same breath as Mazda, or to be expected to compete with the MX-5, because unless you can pile them high and sell them cheap, there's no money in it.
If they do launch the type of car you're talking about, they want people to think that 50k (or whatever) is a bargain for a Lotus, not to say it should be MX-5 money.
Oilchange said:
Cold said:
rockin said:
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.rockin said:
Oilchange said:
Cold said:
rockin said:
Cold said:
Yes, yes that is a direct competitor. They're almost identical apart from price. I can see why you felt the need to mention it on this thread.
You're right. A brand new, mid-engine V8 at a sensible price is a million miles away from anything Lotus has been able to produce in the last 20 years.otolith said:
Because although they tried that trick very successfully, it never made them enough money?
They're doing what they're doing because they want to shift the perception of the brand. They don't want to be talked about in the same breath as Mazda, or to be expected to compete with the MX-5, because unless you can pile them high and sell them cheap, there's no money in it.
If they do launch the type of car you're talking about, they want people to think that 50k (or whatever) is a bargain for a Lotus, not to say it should be MX-5 money.
indeed, making money on an affordable car is difficult, really difficult, but a eSports car has lower overheads and can share more of it's components so might (note might) be viable. And of course "affordable" is now a larger sum of money than it ever was, and probably is realistically high 30's low 40's these daysThey're doing what they're doing because they want to shift the perception of the brand. They don't want to be talked about in the same breath as Mazda, or to be expected to compete with the MX-5, because unless you can pile them high and sell them cheap, there's no money in it.
If they do launch the type of car you're talking about, they want people to think that 50k (or whatever) is a bargain for a Lotus, not to say it should be MX-5 money.
Lotus are really on a tightrope, imo, either they become the purveyor of a tiny number of expensive trinkets for the ultra rich (see Koenigsegg AB for reference), or they stick to providing niche engineering services to other OEs (And these days those services are increasingly available for less money from other offshore sources) or they try to still be an actual "volume" vehicle producer with a range of cars?
The EV revolution is causing a massive change in the industry. When even companies with huge resource like Ford find it better to just buy someone else's product the margins for anything not truly innovative become infinitesimally small, at a time when the basic concept of private vehicle ownership and useage is starting to itself change.
Max_Torque said:
Tuna said:
As an aside, you crash into threads like this and dismiss other manufacturer's work - it comes across as either supremely arrogant or deeply unprofessional. Are you really surprised at the response it gets?
This new car uses motors and a battery i have consulted on, so it's not really "other peoples work".....My point, which people seem to ignore in favour of calling me an idiot, is that Lotus themselves have made significant claims for this project, but that those claims, imo, don't necessarily stand scrutiny, and are mostly the usual marketing "hot air" at this point. It's quite correct to say that these days the powertrain is to a large degree the "easy bit" be that ICE or EV. In fact, should you visit any of the large OEs you will find something like 10 times the number of engineers working on EFC as on the PT!
No, my concern is that this (amazing) project is really just 'jumping on the bandwagon' of making a few, ultra expensive hyper cars to sell to a mere handful of the worlds richest, and as such isn't actually either that difficult, or utilising the historical core Lotus skills (which i don't actually exist really any longer, because they were skills from the past, rather than from today, and you'll note that Lotus have actually bought in all the core skills (WAE=battery, IP=Motors+inverters, Trans=Hewland, Tub=CPC) to build this car)
Don't get me wrong, this new car is amazing, but it isn't either a "new thing" or "a new future" (as yet).
So whilst it is impressive, it would be more impressive (to me) for Lotus to try to take up the very real challenge of re-inventing an affordable eSports car for the next generation. They did so with the Elise back in the late 1990's, taking a whole new approach to a low mass, relatively low cost platform, using OTS powertrain and components, packaged into a unique body. As EV powertrain parts continue to tumble in cost, and become ever more available, why not try to do that same trick again? Mazda sell loads of MX-5's, even if you could get 1% of that market i think it could be made to work :-)
otolith said:
Because although they tried that trick very successfully, it never made them enough money?
They're doing what they're doing because they want to shift the perception of the brand. They don't want to be talked about in the same breath as Mazda, or to be expected to compete with the MX-5, because unless you can pile them high and sell them cheap, there's no money in it.
If they do launch the type of car you're talking about, they want people to think that 50k (or whatever) is a bargain for a Lotus, not to say it should be MX-5 money.
As you said in the Elise thread, “Bluntly, they need buyers to see a 50k Lotus how they'd see a 50k McLaren, not how they'd see a 50k Mazda.”They're doing what they're doing because they want to shift the perception of the brand. They don't want to be talked about in the same breath as Mazda, or to be expected to compete with the MX-5, because unless you can pile them high and sell them cheap, there's no money in it.
If they do launch the type of car you're talking about, they want people to think that 50k (or whatever) is a bargain for a Lotus, not to say it should be MX-5 money.
That sums up the purpose of Evija beautifully, and is basically the executive summary of the Geely business plan for Lotus IMO.
I think they have an uphill struggle in the UK, but for every other market the Lotus brand is currently almost invisible so they have a great chance to start again, jumping off from F1 wins and James Bond supercars from the 70’s and completely skipping the cut-price decades that followed.
otolith said:
Max_Torque said:
So whilst it is impressive, it would be more impressive (to me) for Lotus to try to take up the very real challenge of re-inventing an affordable eSports car for the next generation. They did so with the Elise back in the late 1990's, taking a whole new approach to a low mass, relatively low cost platform, using OTS powertrain and components, packaged into a unique body. As EV powertrain parts continue to tumble in cost, and become ever more available, why not try to do that same trick again? Mazda sell loads of MX-5's, even if you could get 1% of that market i think it could be made to work :-)
Because although they tried that trick very successfully, it never made them enough money?They're doing what they're doing because they want to shift the perception of the brand. They don't want to be talked about in the same breath as Mazda, or to be expected to compete with the MX-5, because unless you can pile them high and sell them cheap, there's no money in it.
If they do launch the type of car you're talking about, they want people to think that 50k (or whatever) is a bargain for a Lotus, not to say it should be MX-5 money.
Max’s example of being able to build a sports car for hatchback money completely ignores the basic economics of not being able to amortise the costs with volume sales. Sports cars are low volume at all levels and so carry a much higher element of the production amortisation cost per unit. In addition to that they must carry more profit margin on top of that because of that low volume.
Ergo, the cost of manufacturing as contrast to mainstream, high volume cars is irrelevant because the pricing mechanics are from two different planets.
As you say, or said earlier, the purpose of this £2m toy is purely to allow Lotus to get away from being seen as a cheap brand and to allow them to actually apply the cost and profit margins they desperately need to stay in business as a sports car vendor. Which is what we all want.
DonkeyApple said:
Max’s example of being able to build a sports car for hatchback money completely ignores the basic economics of not being able to amortise the costs with volume sales. Sports cars are low volume at all levels and so carry a much higher element of the production amortisation cost per unit. In addition to that they must carry more profit margin on top of that because of that low volume.
Ergo, the cost of manufacturing as contrast to mainstream, high volume cars is irrelevant because the pricing mechanics are from two different planets.
This. It was interesting in the Singer DLS interview that Rob & Maz rightly pointed out that making 75 cars is, effectively, and from the perspective of economies of scale and production, little different to making a one-off.Ergo, the cost of manufacturing as contrast to mainstream, high volume cars is irrelevant because the pricing mechanics are from two different planets.
I'm an engineer by qualification and profession and have been/am involved in the production of goods from urgent, fast turnaround one-offs of simple fabrications, to self-propelled machinery made in small quantity. I work with guys who've spent decades in high-volume automotive supply chain engineering and it is hard to get the layman to understand quite how this works.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff