Bad crash at my local boy racer meet
Discussion
agtlaw said:
tonyvid said:
Was there any follow up to this incident, any prosecutions?
Two people charged.https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/essex-m...
19 injured and 1 permanently in a wheel chair, blimey.https://www.thecomet.net/news/two-charged-over-roa...
Featuring another interview with Chief Inspector Alicia Shaw. It's a minimum of 6 months old though as she retired at the end of 2019.
Featuring another interview with Chief Inspector Alicia Shaw. It's a minimum of 6 months old though as she retired at the end of 2019.
cossy400 said:
Interesting decision. Seems to me that there’s a very small chance of a not guilty verdict. Haven’t they just made their punishment potentially far worse?mstrbkr said:
cossy400 said:
Interesting decision. Seems to me that there’s a very small chance of a not guilty verdict. Haven’t they just made their punishment potentially far worse?But in my limited understanding of things i always thought an early guilty plea was favourable.
100s of witnesses, something like 20 injured and one in a wheel chair.
Again in my limited understanding id say its clear cut.
I’m guessing that this is not because there is no guilt but because they want to duke it out as to which driver carries that guilt?
One driver will probably be arguing that he is innocent as he was just pulling out of a junction that was clear if cars were travelling at the legal speed limit. The other will claim it was technically a private event and everyone in attendance knew that rules of the drag strip were applying. They will both blame pedestrians for their recklessness and also the organisers for their failings.
One driver will probably be arguing that he is innocent as he was just pulling out of a junction that was clear if cars were travelling at the legal speed limit. The other will claim it was technically a private event and everyone in attendance knew that rules of the drag strip were applying. They will both blame pedestrians for their recklessness and also the organisers for their failings.
cossy400 said:
100s of witnesses, something like 20 injured and one in a wheel chair.
Again in my limited understanding id say its clear cut.
If those "witnesses" had used common sense and gone home after the meet, there would have been many fewer people standing at the side of the road.Again in my limited understanding id say its clear cut.
And many fewer standing around to get injured.
I mean, it's not as if it was foreseeable, was it?
Maybe someone will try to mitigate that all
spectators knew and accepted the risk and that they willingly put themselves in deliberate danger in exchange for the thrill. Maybe it will be argued that it was police failings that caused the incident or the land owners for not securing their premises appropriately or the taxpayer is at fault for not laying on proper events. There’s even a chance that one of them may draw a sober or competent barrister or one who cares from the freebie pot?
spectators knew and accepted the risk and that they willingly put themselves in deliberate danger in exchange for the thrill. Maybe it will be argued that it was police failings that caused the incident or the land owners for not securing their premises appropriately or the taxpayer is at fault for not laying on proper events. There’s even a chance that one of them may draw a sober or competent barrister or one who cares from the freebie pot?
I can't see how driving like a t
t is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.
The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
t is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
blueg33 said:
I can't see how driving like a tt is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.
The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
There is an element of culpability on the part of the spectators, I feel.t is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
Durzel said:
There is an element of culpability on the part of the spectators, I feel.
We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
Yeah, totally. I mean, you have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front. We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
I agree that a large number of the spectators would have shown up hoping to see drivers arsing about. A smaller number might have been hoping to see someone "do a Mustang". But, spanking along up that hill at those speeds is negligent regardless of whether the people lining that hill are car enthusiasts.
A game of darts seems to be a good analogue as it's something with an inherent risk which, despite that risk, rarely causes injury. When I've played darts I have occasionally had some oblivious person decide to stand close to the board... You simply don't throw your darts until you're happy you've got them a safe distance away, even though you're unlikely to miss the board you wouldn't take the risk, even if they're being stupid about it. If I threw regardless and hit someone I don't think "but they shouldn't be standing there" would go down well with the beak.
donkmeister said:
Durzel said:
There is an element of culpability on the part of the spectators, I feel.
We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
Yeah, totally. I mean, you have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front. We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
This is probably one for agtlaw: a lot of posters are invoking something akin to the civil law concepts of contributory negligence or volenti non fit injuria in order to pin some blame on the spectators. And that may be relevant were a civil case to be brought by any of the injured spectators. However would that line of argument really work as mitigation in a criminal case such as this?
Durzel said:
donkmeister said:
Durzel said:
There is an element of culpability on the part of the spectators, I feel.
We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
Yeah, totally. I mean, you have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front. We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
I would be concerned that the legal culpability for the driving offences could be mitigated by the actions of the spectators. The driver is totally responsible for what they do with the vehicle.
In a civil case for damages due tot the injury then the spectators actions should be taken in to account.
In a civil case for damages due tot the injury then the spectators actions should be taken in to account.
blueg33 said:
I can't see how driving like a tt is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.
The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
Surely it would be legitimate to argue that they have all seen Fast and Furious and know the rules of unofficial race meets? Or that they all fervently follow the code of YOLO. t is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
In reality the two defences are going to argue whatever it takes to reduce their client’s liability. I doubt the potential outcome involves the possibility of walking away Scott free so it’s all about painting as strong a picture as possible of mitigation and the like and that is possibly most easily done by laying potions of blame at other doorsteps.
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
I can't see how driving like a tt is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.
The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
Surely it would be legitimate to argue that they have all seen Fast and Furious and know the rules of unofficial race meets? Or that they all fervently follow the code of YOLO. t is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
In reality the two defences are going to argue whatever it takes to reduce their client’s liability. I doubt the potential outcome involves the possibility of walking away Scott free so it’s all about painting as strong a picture as possible of mitigation and the like and that is possibly most easily done by laying potions of blame at other doorsteps.
If he hadnt pulled out, if the other hadnt of been show boating the spectators would have been safe.
All ifs and buts.
i look forward to this one panning out.
cossy400 said:
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
I can't see how driving like a tt is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.
The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
Surely it would be legitimate to argue that they have all seen Fast and Furious and know the rules of unofficial race meets? Or that they all fervently follow the code of YOLO. t is the fault of anyone other that the person or persons driving like a tt.The fact that there were spectators there means they should have taken more care not less.
Not all spectators will be drivers or have any idea of the distance an out of control car could travel
In reality the two defences are going to argue whatever it takes to reduce their client’s liability. I doubt the potential outcome involves the possibility of walking away Scott free so it’s all about painting as strong a picture as possible of mitigation and the like and that is possibly most easily done by laying potions of blame at other doorsteps.
If he hadnt pulled out, if the other hadnt of been show boating the spectators would have been safe.
All ifs and buts.
i look forward to this one panning out.
Durzel said:
donkmeister said:
Durzel said:
There is an element of culpability on the part of the spectators, I feel.
We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
Yeah, totally. I mean, you have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front. We're not talking about innocent bystanders here going about their business. They turned up to watch this illegal event take place, and were standing on embankments, etc that were not meant for pedestrians, encouraging these antics. While none of them deserved to be injured, they had to expect that there would be a non-zero risk of that happening.
Also, I'd argue that they were contributory to both the event itself and the outcome happening in the first place. Would these morons have been racing were it not for the crowd? Do morons take greater risks when performing for a crowd? Arguably the answer to both of those questions is yes.
So yeah, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, and made an example of, but let's not pretend that the spectators - not bystanders - were wholly innocent of blame.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff