RE: Next BMW M3 confirmed as all-wheel drive...

[E65Ross]

jamoor said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

I’d like to own a gsf though

But it's not as a driver's car (compared to the M3/M4) and neither is an RC-F. I'd love the reliability and no doubt it wins hands down in this department (because it's Japanese made) but I know which one gets me more excited.

Why isn’t it a drivers car? Toyota have a large amount of expertise in making drivers cars and it shows in the Isf. I’m sure the GSF is the same too. The e92 m3 has poor drivers ergonomics, you can’t see the entire gauge cluster due to its design/shape.

Depends on your seating position I guess. I had no issues like then when I drove one.

[Burwood]

jamoor said:

PorkInsider said:

I really don't see many people caring about the fuel cost per mile.

There are plenty of dipsticks like me around who are losing such vast sums in depreciation that the fuel cost isn't even a pimple on the ball sack of ownership costs.

I reckon I've done £30k in depreciation over 30 months on my M4 and have managed the grand total of 8,400 miles in that time - it's not even turned a wheel in the past 6 weeks.

So that's what...£3.60 per mile depreciation?

I reckon fuel cost is 30p per mile.

It would make sod all difference if the fuel was free or twice the price.

Even if I actually used it and tripled the fuel expenditure, it would be insignificant.

That’s a tiny market, it’s the large market of 320ds, that makes cars like the m3 possible due to the shared platform.

Oh I dunno. The m3 sells many 320 the ultimate driving machine isn’t a non M car. I went from a 7 to an m3. Both very good cars

[cerb4.5lee]

E65Ross said:

jamoor said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

I’d like to own a gsf though

But it's not as a driver's car (compared to the M3/M4) and neither is an RC-F. I'd love the reliability and no doubt it wins hands down in this department (because it's Japanese made) but I know which one gets me more excited.

Why isn’t it a drivers car? Toyota have a large amount of expertise in making drivers cars and it shows in the Isf. I’m sure the GSF is the same too. The e92 m3 has poor drivers ergonomics, you can’t see the entire gauge cluster due to its design/shape.

Depends on your seating position I guess. I had no issues like then when I drove one.

You do sit on rather than in with the E92 M3 because the seat doesn't go low enough, because of all the electric stuff under the seat. You can get nice and low in the normal 3 series if you don't have electric seats though.

[RobM77]

cerb4.5lee said:

E65Ross said:

jamoor said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

I’d like to own a gsf though

But it's not as a driver's car (compared to the M3/M4) and neither is an RC-F. I'd love the reliability and no doubt it wins hands down in this department (because it's Japanese made) but I know which one gets me more excited.

Why isn’t it a drivers car? Toyota have a large amount of expertise in making drivers cars and it shows in the Isf. I’m sure the GSF is the same too. The e92 m3 has poor drivers ergonomics, you can’t see the entire gauge cluster due to its design/shape.

Depends on your seating position I guess. I had no issues like then when I drove one.

You do sit on rather than in with the E92 M3 because the seat doesn't go low enough, because of all the electric stuff under the seat. You can get nice and low in the normal 3 series if you don't have electric seats though.

This is a perennial BMW problem and it maddens me that they can’t fix it. It’s been an issue for decades, in my ownership going right back to my year 2000 model E46.

Case in point: I’m 5’10”, mostly leg (36” inside leg!), so a short torso; yet with the seat on the lowest setting and reclined more than most, my eyeline was in the centre of the windscreen in both my E90s - that is quite simply ridiculous, particularly for a car supposedly designed as a driver’s car, by a company with a vast design and development budget. The other problem is the driving position in general: even in the best BMW I’ve had for this (my current F10 530d), the steering wheel is two inches too far away, and the pedals two inches too close. I either get aching shoulders straining to reach the wheel, or aching ankles straining onto the pedals. To steer safely, I choose the latter, and it’s even starting to impact my main hobby of running. BMW: sort it out!! It’s been decades like this and every generation you make the same mistakes.

[jamoor]

RobM77 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

E65Ross said:

jamoor said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

I’d like to own a gsf though

But it's not as a driver's car (compared to the M3/M4) and neither is an RC-F. I'd love the reliability and no doubt it wins hands down in this department (because it's Japanese made) but I know which one gets me more excited.

Why isn’t it a drivers car? Toyota have a large amount of expertise in making drivers cars and it shows in the Isf. I’m sure the GSF is the same too. The e92 m3 has poor drivers ergonomics, you can’t see the entire gauge cluster due to its design/shape.

Depends on your seating position I guess. I had no issues like then when I drove one.

You do sit on rather than in with the E92 M3 because the seat doesn't go low enough, because of all the electric stuff under the seat. You can get nice and low in the normal 3 series if you don't have electric seats though.

This is a perennial BMW problem and it maddens me that they can’t fix it. It’s been an issue for decades, in my ownership going right back to my year 2000 model E46.

Case in point: I’m 5’10”, mostly leg (36” inside leg!), so a short torso; yet with the seat on the lowest setting and reclined more than most, my eyeline was in the centre of the windscreen in both my E90s - that is quite simply ridiculous, particularly for a car supposedly designed as a driver’s car, by a company with a vast design and development budget. The other problem is the driving position in general: even in the best BMW I’ve had for this (my current F10 530d), the steering wheel is two inches too far away, and the pedals two inches too close. I either get aching shoulders straining to reach the wheel, or aching ankles straining onto the pedals. To steer safely, I choose the latter, and it’s even starting to impact my main hobby of running. BMW: sort it out!! It’s been decades like this and every generation you make the same mistakes.

It’s even funnier when they remove features between generations. I’m sure they went from led tail lights in the e46 back to halogens in the e90 shape!

[A1VDY]

E65Ross said:

Peanus said:

RSTurboPaul said:

I'm pleased to see people actually interested in driving, rather than having the fastest thing possible on PCP to show off their 'lifestyle'.

Imagine being this affected by how people choose to spend their own money

I know, it's really bizarre.

I must be terrible because I bought my house with a mortgage and I have to pay it off monthly....I couldn't afford to buy it outright, clearly I need to hand my PH membership in!

A mortgage is fine... you're not going to have to give your house back after 3 years.
PCP'ers just rent..

[E65Ross]

A1VDY said:

E65Ross said:

Peanus said:

RSTurboPaul said:

I'm pleased to see people actually interested in driving, rather than having the fastest thing possible on PCP to show off their 'lifestyle'.

Imagine being this affected by how people choose to spend their own money

I know, it's really bizarre.

I must be terrible because I bought my house with a mortgage and I have to pay it off monthly....I couldn't afford to buy it outright, clearly I need to hand my PH membership in!

A mortgage is fine... you're not going to have to give your house back after 3 years.
PCP'ers just rent..

Yet a huge percentage of the population don't have a mortgage and rent their property. So what? Of they're happy with that, leave them to it!

[PorkInsider]

jamoor said:

PorkInsider said:

I really don't see many people caring about the fuel cost per mile.

There are plenty of dipsticks like me around who are losing such vast sums in depreciation that the fuel cost isn't even a pimple on the ball sack of ownership costs.

I reckon I've done £30k in depreciation over 30 months on my M4 and have managed the grand total of 8,400 miles in that time - it's not even turned a wheel in the past 6 weeks.

So that's what...£3.60 per mile depreciation?

I reckon fuel cost is 30p per mile.

It would make sod all difference if the fuel was free or twice the price.

Even if I actually used it and tripled the fuel expenditure, it would be insignificant.

That’s a tiny market, it’s the large market of 320ds, that makes cars like the m3 possible due to the shared platform.

You weren't talking about a 320d, though, you were replying to a post comparing M3 with Model 3:

jamoor said:

HighwayStar said:

I’d say on paper, bare numbers the Model 3 would have clear advantages but in the reality... unless you’re about the numbers the M3 would offer more character, more soul.

I wonder how many people will be willing to forego the character and soul when a 200 mile journey costs £6 v £50. And no Dodgy BMW engine problems to boot.

[Ares]

jamoor said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

I’d like to own a gsf though

But it's not as a driver's car (compared to the M3/M4) and neither is an RC-F. I'd love the reliability and no doubt it wins hands down in this department (because it's Japanese made) but I know which one gets me more excited.

Why isn’t it a drivers car? Toyota have a large amount of expertise in making drivers cars and it shows in the Isf. I’m sure the GSF is the same too. The e92 m3 has poor drivers ergonomics, you can’t see the entire gauge cluster due to its design/shape.

The Lexus is way way behind the BMW (and contemporaries) in terms of drive. It might be solid, reliable and you might be able to see all the instruments.....but those wanting a 'drivers' car don't give a flying fk about that when rating a car as a drivers car.

(and incidentally, I thought the E92 had great driver ergonomics, and better than the F80. But then drivers come in all sorts of different shapes/sizes.)

[delta0]

Did they just put a bmw badge on an Audi?

[jamoor]

Ares said:

jamoor said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

I’d like to own a gsf though

But it's not as a driver's car (compared to the M3/M4) and neither is an RC-F. I'd love the reliability and no doubt it wins hands down in this department (because it's Japanese made) but I know which one gets me more excited.

Why isn’t it a drivers car? Toyota have a large amount of expertise in making drivers cars and it shows in the Isf. I’m sure the GSF is the same too. The e92 m3 has poor drivers ergonomics, you can’t see the entire gauge cluster due to its design/shape.

The Lexus is way way behind the BMW (and contemporaries) in terms of drive. It might be solid, reliable and you might be able to see all the instruments.....but those wanting a 'drivers' car don't give a flying fk about that when rating a car as a drivers car.

(and incidentally, I thought the E92 had great driver ergonomics, and better than the F80. But then drivers come in all sorts of different shapes/sizes.)

What about the Lexus made you think it was behind the e92 M3?

[fido]

jamoor said:

What about the Lexus made you think it was behind the e92 M3?

Slush-box is the main thing that put me off getting one anyway. Manual/DCT for me in a 'sports car'!

[Burwood]

fido said:

jamoor said:

What about the Lexus made you think it was behind the e92 M3?

Slush-box is the main thing that put me off getting one anyway. Manual/DCT for me in a 'sports car'!

Lexus are great cars but the interiors are poor. Too Japanese. Like the get. Just poor

[cerb4.5lee]

jamoor said:

I owned the ISF which was in most respects a better car than the e92 M3 I had at the same time

Given the choice I would have loved to be able to put the engine from the ISF into the E92 M3. I much prefer the characteristics of the engine in the ISF than the engine in the E92 M3.

I've also always thought how great the E92 M3 would be with the engine from the C63 AMG(the 6.2 V8).

[jamoor]

fido said:

jamoor said:

What about the Lexus made you think it was behind the e92 M3?

Slush-box is the main thing that put me off getting one anyway. Manual/DCT for me in a 'sports car'!

What was slushy about the slush box? Did you drive it in sport mode??


From what you say I’m guessing you haven’t driven it.

[jamoor]

Burwood said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

What about the Lexus made you think it was behind the e92 M3?

Slush-box is the main thing that put me off getting one anyway. Manual/DCT for me in a 'sports car'!

Lexus are great cars but the interiors are poor. Too Japanese. Like the get. Just poor

What was poor about it? Was it cheap quality or something?

[Burwood]

jamoor said:

Burwood said:

fido said:

jamoor said:

What about the Lexus made you think it was behind the e92 M3?

Slush-box is the main thing that put me off getting one anyway. Manual/DCT for me in a 'sports car'!

Lexus are great cars but the interiors are poor. Too Japanese. Like the GTR. Just poor

What was poor about it? Was it cheap quality or something?

Not cheap but has that Japanese car feel about it(interior 0. When the LS range is nothing like a8/7/S class on the inside. If they were a bit better I’d consider them. I’m certainly not knocking anyone who has one. Imperious quality

[fido]

jamoor said:

What was slushy about the slush box? Did you drive it in sport mode??

It's an automatic - end of. Whether it is in Lexus or Z4 or whatever I would not get a weekend 'sports car' with one, which is why I have the M3. I don't even like DCT that much. I actually sat in a GS-F when I was in Singapore a few weeks ago - never seen one here. My cousin had the IS-F before, then an M4, and he didn't have anything good to say about the gear-change in either Lexus. Now I would get a GS-F but as a daily (now that is an idea?) .. but it's not an M3/M5 replacement IMO .. it's a luxury car with some M3/5 cues. (Not to detract from this thread but than 5.0 V8 is fantastic - I got a ride to the F1 in the GS-F and it sounded better than the Porsche/Ferrari cup cars before the F1!)

Edited by fido on Sunday 3rd November 13:00

[E65Ross]

fido said:

jamoor said:

What was slushy about the slush box? Did you drive it in sport mode??

It's an automatic - end of. Whether it is in Lexus or Z4 or whatever I would not get a weekend 'sports car' with one, which is why I have the M3. I don't even like DCT that much. I actually sat in a GS-F when I was in Singapore a few weeks ago - never seen one here. My cousin had the IS-F before, then an M4, and he didn't have anything good to say about the gear-change in either Lexus. Now I would get a GS-F but as a daily (now that is an idea?) .. but it's not an M3/M5 replacement IMO .. it's a luxury car with some M3/5 cues. (Not to detract from this thread but than 5.0 V8 is fantastic - I got a ride to the F1 in the GS-F and it sounded better than the Porsche/Ferrari cup cars before the F1!)

Edited by fido on Sunday 3rd November 13:00

My old man used to have an M6 with the DCT box and now has a Jag F Type R, which uses the ZF 8 speed auto. I have driven both cars on multiple occasions and, to be honest, I think the 8 speed 'box is the better unit to have. So is the Jag's engine, mind. The interior, less so....feels very cheap in places.

[cerb4.5lee]

E65Ross said:

My old man used to have an M6 with the DCT box and now has a Jag F Type R, which uses the ZF 8 speed auto. I have driven both cars on multiple occasions and, to be honest, I think the 8 speed 'box is the better unit to have. So is the Jag's engine, mind. The interior, less so....feels very cheap in places.

I'm another one that prefers the ZF8 auto to the DCT. The DCT is great for when you are really on it but not so great when your not. Whereas the ZF8 still has punchy gearchanges but it is much better at doing everything else for me.