RE: Why the Lotus Elise still matters | PH Footnote
Discussion
otolith said:
RobM77 said:
I've driven a few different variations over the years. Generally, things have got slightly better over the years, although a number of new features may annoy. For example, the 2005 111R introduced servo assisted brakes along with the Toyota engine, and they have far too much travel on the brake pedal, which is not nice to use, but also puts your foot to low to heel and toe. This was solved a while later when Lotus moved to a DBW throttle, because they mounted the throttle pedal lower, but you still get a dead zone at the top of the brake pedal (which, interestingly, most Toyotas have as well). That Toyota engine is also not as nice to drive in my opinion as the k series VVC. More reliable I'm sure, but I just don't like the power delivery with that weird step at about 6200rpm (60mph in 2nd gear, so one has to ask what the point is!). The best I've driven is a late model supercharged Elise, which had most of the brake and throttle issues sorted, and the supercharger gives you the low down urge the Toyota engine lacked and smooths out the step at higher revs. It's touch and go whether I prefer it to a good early Elise though. It certainly wasn't enough to tempt me out of my S2 111S.
The heel and toe situation is odd, because it's within the scope of adjustment of the pedals to fix it. Unfortunately, you need to risk positional asphyxia in the Lotus position (head in the footwell) to do so. My specialist did it for me unprompted at the first service he did.The cam change point can be lowered with a remap, which also makes it smoother and reduces the need to chase the limiter to keep on cam in the next gear. As standard, it happens at 50mph in second, with the reflash it's 45mph. 2nd runs to 68mph.
I think it's a bit of a marmite engine really, depends whether you like that sort of thing. I do, not least because I think that making them screamers is the only way to make four cylinder engines interesting, but I think the Honda K20A is a much nicer implementation.
andy_s said:
I've had an urge for one since the Elise went, I think they're the hidden gem in the Lotus pantheon - ridiculously rare, easier to live with yet easily fettled if required while retaining the communicative feel of the Elise/Exiges; values will hold very well I think.
Do it!I had an SE, and loved it.
Baldchap said:
otolith said:
RobM77 said:
I've driven a few different variations over the years. Generally, things have got slightly better over the years, although a number of new features may annoy. For example, the 2005 111R introduced servo assisted brakes along with the Toyota engine, and they have far too much travel on the brake pedal, which is not nice to use, but also puts your foot to low to heel and toe. This was solved a while later when Lotus moved to a DBW throttle, because they mounted the throttle pedal lower, but you still get a dead zone at the top of the brake pedal (which, interestingly, most Toyotas have as well). That Toyota engine is also not as nice to drive in my opinion as the k series VVC. More reliable I'm sure, but I just don't like the power delivery with that weird step at about 6200rpm (60mph in 2nd gear, so one has to ask what the point is!). The best I've driven is a late model supercharged Elise, which had most of the brake and throttle issues sorted, and the supercharger gives you the low down urge the Toyota engine lacked and smooths out the step at higher revs. It's touch and go whether I prefer it to a good early Elise though. It certainly wasn't enough to tempt me out of my S2 111S.
The heel and toe situation is odd, because it's within the scope of adjustment of the pedals to fix it. Unfortunately, you need to risk positional asphyxia in the Lotus position (head in the footwell) to do so. My specialist did it for me unprompted at the first service he did.The cam change point can be lowered with a remap, which also makes it smoother and reduces the need to chase the limiter to keep on cam in the next gear. As standard, it happens at 50mph in second, with the reflash it's 45mph. 2nd runs to 68mph.
I think it's a bit of a marmite engine really, depends whether you like that sort of thing. I do, not least because I think that making them screamers is the only way to make four cylinder engines interesting, but I think the Honda K20A is a much nicer implementation.
Sford said:
gofasterrosssco said:
Lotus kinda did - its was called the Europa, and had a fixed roof and lower sills (the fixed roof allowing the sills to be lowered) but no one really bought it...
Probably slightly ahead of its time, and poorly marketed.
And was just a VX220 turbo in a frock.Probably slightly ahead of its time, and poorly marketed.
Although that's a bit simplistic - all the Elise variants (incl. the Type 116 / VX220) had relatively small changes on the same chassis / suspension / brakes / steering theme. So the Europa had many things the VX didn't, and is about as close to an Elise in that respect (e.g. 6-speed gearbox, A/C, different interior, different exterior, etc.)
gofasterrosssco said:
You say it like its a bad thing..
Although that's a bit simplistic - all the Elise variants (incl. the Type 116 / VX220) had relatively small changes on the same chassis / suspension / brakes / steering theme. So the Europa had many things the VX didn't, and is about as close to an Elise in that respect (e.g. 6-speed gearbox, A/C, different interior, different exterior, etc.)
Quite the opposite, it was probably all the better for it. VX220 owner here as well Although that's a bit simplistic - all the Elise variants (incl. the Type 116 / VX220) had relatively small changes on the same chassis / suspension / brakes / steering theme. So the Europa had many things the VX didn't, and is about as close to an Elise in that respect (e.g. 6-speed gearbox, A/C, different interior, different exterior, etc.)
giveitfish said:
I wonder how many Elise’s were ever sold under £20k? I had the sales receipt for my S1 and it was nearly £27k in 1999 and I think standard list was circa £23k.
This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
Same here. Mine was #8004 (which I think is dead now) and I think the base price was £22,800 for a boggo S1 and the final price with options (Corbeau seats, CD player, alarm, driving lights) was £27,100.This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
Rawwr said:
giveitfish said:
I wonder how many Elise’s were ever sold under £20k? I had the sales receipt for my S1 and it was nearly £27k in 1999 and I think standard list was circa £23k.
This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
Same here. Mine was #8004 (which I think is dead now) and I think the base price was £22,800 for a boggo S1 and the final price with options (Corbeau seats, CD player, alarm, driving lights) was £27,100.This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
Weekendrebuild said:
Never got on with my elise sold it an bought my dads old elan s2 , to old to get in an out . Bit off a money pit but a real lotus in my eyes
What didn't you like about it?I had a VX220 when I was younger and loved it; just required a geometry setup and ABS fuse removing. Like the Elise I had a few years later, it was great fun to drive on the road, at any speed.
Lucky to also own a Motorsport Elise I raced; it had a lot of power out of its K Series but we ultimately changed it to a Duratec. A better engine on paper, but you couldn't beat the noise or handling balance of that tiny Rover engine. I would love a road going Elise 190; they are super rare though.
I am also lucky enough to race a Lotus Elan 26R and would love a road-going version in S2, convertible form. I have driven a regular Elan and they are fun, but a bit 'quaint' - much like a modern MX5 in that is playful but not very sophisticated. You reach the limits pretty easy, whereas an Elise could teach you to drive (on track) for years.
It rather surprises me that most owners of early Elises seem to be manual box fanatics. As a drivers car for me the weakest point of the S1 S2 is its gearchange - to the point where personally I would definitely choose a good automatic. Completely different story wiith the current car which has a genuinely nice change which is a pleasure to use.
bcr5784 said:
It rather surprises me that most owners of early Elises seem to be manual box fanatics. As a drivers car for me the weakest point of the S1 S2 is its gearchange - to the point where personally I would definitely choose a good automatic. Completely different story wiith the current car which has a genuinely nice change which is a pleasure to use.
£40 is a cheap gear-linkage kit upgrade for the earlier Elise. Most have had this done. I never connected with my Elise 111R. The sketchy rearward balance felt like a builders four pound hammer in the wet. Zero mass up front, like an empty biscuit tin didn't help balance much either.
I wish Lotus would make something front engined, such as the Caterham 21 or a Ginetta G4. Something where you can throw it about, hang it's arse out and hold it there just for the fun of it.
I wish Lotus would make something front engined, such as the Caterham 21 or a Ginetta G4. Something where you can throw it about, hang it's arse out and hold it there just for the fun of it.
Of the k series elise's I've driven, the gear change was much worse than on the vx. Felt a lot sloppier than the F23 of the VX. A change to the way the cables attach to the linkage seems to fix that though. I always found my VX to have a really precise gear change and even better when changed to the short shift. I wouldn't rush to make the short shift change though as the standard is pretty good.
bcr5784 said:
It rather surprises me that most owners of early Elises seem to be manual box fanatics. As a drivers car for me the weakest point of the S1 S2 is its gearchange - to the point where personally I would definitely choose a good automatic. Completely different story wiith the current car which has a genuinely nice change which is a pleasure to use.
For me, it would have to be a lot worse than that before I would rather do without. You do lose something in having an imperfect shift action, but an automatic loses everything. Kubevoid said:
I never connected with my Elise 111R. The sketchy rearward balance felt like a builders four pound hammer in the wet. Zero mass up front, like an empty biscuit tin didn't help balance much either.
I wish Lotus would make something front engined, such as the Caterham 21 or a Ginetta G4. Something where you can throw it about, hang it's arse out and hold it there just for the fun of it.
Yeah, it's not that kind of car, for sure. As you say, you wouldn't start off with a mid engined layout if you wanted that.I wish Lotus would make something front engined, such as the Caterham 21 or a Ginetta G4. Something where you can throw it about, hang it's arse out and hold it there just for the fun of it.
Kubevoid said:
I never connected with my Elise 111R. The sketchy rearward balance felt like a builders four pound hammer in the wet. Zero mass up front, like an empty biscuit tin didn't help balance much either.
I wish Lotus would make something front engined, such as the Caterham 21 or a Ginetta G4. Something where you can throw it about, hang it's arse out and hold it there just for the fun of it.
My S1 Elise is very driftable. I have a Quaife LSD, decent tyres and a proper geo and it goes sideways with relative ease and gives very controllable oversteer. I wish Lotus would make something front engined, such as the Caterham 21 or a Ginetta G4. Something where you can throw it about, hang it's arse out and hold it there just for the fun of it.
As for gearchange, mine has the Eliseparts quickshift kit and it is perfectly good. I wouldn't say it is any worse than the 6speed change in my Caterham.
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