RE: 400hp BMW M140e hybrid due next year

[herebebeasties]

nickfrog said:

That's the thing. I don't need to be part of a majority to like something which is entirely subjective, by definition. Even if I was in a minority of one, it wouldn't change what is a very personal and instinctive preference.
Besides, it's also entirely conceivable that some buy BMWs for the way they drive, you never know.

I'm not seeking to change your mind or tell you that you're wrong, whereas your question "Are they?" seemed to seek to change my mind. So far our small sample size seems to think that about 2/3 of people find them ugly, and puzzlingly so. Thank goodness we can all buy whatever we want.

[RobDickinson]

Looks wise its terrible, looks like korean design from 10-20 years ago or even modern honda.

The hybrid system is fine will let you do commutes without using fuel but the only thing that will tech you is you dont want the ICE engine at all - complicated noisy and outdated.

I cant see this having 35kWh either thats way too much for a hybrid , more like 12-18kWh.

As to what happens when it runs out - well plug in hybrids usually keep 1/3rd of the battery full for use and will charge it up if you are in a performance mode with spare capacity from the ICE engine - because no one will run an engine at 100% all the time, just doesnt happen.

[RobDickinson]

Also consumers have been abandoning hybrids and plug in hybrids worldwide in favor of full electric. GM and VW are shutting down hybrid production.

BMW are behind the times by a long way here which is a shame given their start with the i3 and i8.

[unsprung]

On the other side of the Pond, the hybrid powertrain is more popular than a full-on BEV. Probably because the latter is still too costly and offers too little in the way of content / comfort (but I'm just guessing).

For example, the following articles.


"Analysts expect hybrids to outpace electric cars in the U.S. through at least the middle of the next decade. By 2025, hybrids will represent 15% of the U.S. market, up from 2.7% last year"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03...


"Toyota’s RAV4 Hybrid, with standard all-wheel drive, is the company’s biggest recent green car success. Toyota has now posted multiple months this year above 10,000 units delivered. Dealers cannot get enough inventory and buyers are waiting for RAV4 hybrids."

http://bestride.com/news/as-battery-electric-vehic...

[mrpenks]

Never thought I’d say this but an all electric Model 3 is surely a better car and probably similar price once options are taken into account.

[sam.rog]

Toyota have it nailed with the rav4 a co worker has one and is impressed by it. He said he would never go back to a “normal” car now. The hybrid system just works.

[RobM77]

I don't mean to be negative, but why's it so tall? Height is a disaster for performance. And why's it 4WD? The E92 M3 was fine with 400bhp and rear drive, so why not this? If they really think 4WD is necessary at that power output, then why not 300bhp and rear drive? 400bhp will only be usable on the road now and then, so we might as well have RWD, which is enjoyable all the time, and 300bhp!

BMW will and must evolve as time goes on, but these are their core values that they've abandoned - BMWs have always been rear drive and lower than other cars. That's the whole point - it's what makes them drive so well and so much better than taller front and four wheel drive cars from other manufacturers. What's the USP of this car over an A45 AMG now?

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 13th August 08:27

[SOL111]

RobM77 said:

I don't mean to be negative, but why's it so tall? Height is a disaster for performance. And why's it 4WD? The E92 M3 was fine with 400bhp and rear drive, so why not this? If they really think 4WD is necessary at that power output, then why not 300bhp and rear drive? 400bhp will only be usable on the road now and then, so we might as well have RWD, which is enjoyable all the time, and 300bhp!

BMW will and must evolve as time goes on, but these are their core values that they've abandoned - BMWs have always been rear drive and lower than other cars. That's the whole point - it's what makes them drive so well and so much better than taller front and four wheel drive cars from other manufacturers. What's the USP of this car over an A45 AMG now?

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 13th August 08:27

I think the height is an illusion as there's not much difference between the outgoing model.

The 4WD is for packaging as it's a FWD setup for the rest of the range.

I agree about the 4WD but it seems BMW are prioritising their main customer base, who have generally complained about space (rear seat and boot) and aren't bothered about dynamics. They've addressed this so will keep more people happier than the likes of us.

From the reviews, it's supposed to be pretty good and gather it's a better steer than previously.

[RS Grant]

RobM77 said:

I don't mean to be negative, but why's it so tall? Height is a disaster for performance. And why's it 4WD? The E92 M3 was fine with 400bhp and rear drive, so why not this? If they really think 4WD is necessary at that power output, then why not 300bhp and rear drive? 400bhp will only be usable on the road now and then, so we might as well have RWD, which is enjoyable all the time, and 300bhp!

BMW will and must evolve as time goes on, but these are their core values that they've abandoned - BMWs have always been rear drive and lower than other cars. That's the whole point - it's what makes them drive so well and so much better than taller front and four wheel drive cars from other manufacturers. What's the USP of this car over an A45 AMG now?

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 13th August 08:27

I assume it’s a combination of wanting to reduce build costs by using a Mini platform and increasing the cars all weather ability; along with increasing the appeal to the people who buy something with 4WD for safety as well as attracting the increasing number of nauses who traditionally buy an S3/Golf R/A45 so they can shout about 0-60/0-100 performance figures.

As you say, they’ve unfortunately had to move with the times.

[nickfrog]

herebebeasties said:

I'm not seeking to change your mind or tell you that you're wrong, whereas your question "Are they?" seemed to seek to change my mind. So far our small sample size seems to think that about 2/3 of people find them ugly, and puzzlingly so. Thank goodness we can all buy whatever we want.

No. "Are they ? “ highlights the subjectivity of looks, which I think you now accept. Again, I don't understand what other people's view on the attractiveness of a design has to do with mine. I can't help liking them, it's not an opinion formed on rational thinking. It's like colours, some like blue, some like yellow etc
Besides, should we apply the sweeping statement to the entire range of BMW's? And what is a modern BMW? When did they start being unfathomly ugly?

[Poppiecock]

RobDickinson said:

Also consumers have been abandoning hybrids and plug in hybrids worldwide in favor of full electric. GM and VW are shutting down hybrid production.

BMW are behind the times by a long way here which is a shame given their start with the i3 and i8.

VW are just about to launch the facelift Passat GTE hybrid, the next ten. Golf will have a GTE hybrid as did the current one and Skoda have a Superb hybrid now, too. Much of the Audi range is running mild hybrids and the A3 replacement will once again get an eTron version.

So much for shutting down production!

We don’t really care about GM as they don’t build for the EU market anymore and their only EU hybrid offering was terrible, so no surprise they’re giving them up.

[anonymous-user]

RobM77 said:

I don't mean to be negative, but why's it so tall? Height is a disaster for performance. And why's it 4WD? The E92 M3 was fine with 400bhp and rear drive, so why not this? If they really think 4WD is necessary at that power output, then why not 300bhp and rear drive? 400bhp will only be usable on the road now and then, so we might as well have RWD, which is enjoyable all the time, and 300bhp!

BMW will and must evolve as time goes on, but these are their core values that they've abandoned - BMWs have always been rear drive and lower than other cars. That's the whole point - it's what makes them drive so well and so much better than taller front and four wheel drive cars from other manufacturers. What's the USP of this car over an A45 AMG now?

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 13th August 08:27

Is it because of the torque generated by the electric motors? Honestly, 99% of the population really only care about how little things cost to run. It's also of great importance how fast they feel they can get to 30mph

[Poppiecock]

yonex said:

Is it because of the torque generated by the electric motors? Honestly, 99% of the population really only care about how little things cost to run. It's also of great importance how fast they feel they can get to 30mph

ICE powers fronts, electric motors the rear.

Like a back to front i8.

[Legacywr]

This could make an interesting company car, I wonder what the BiK will look like?

Slightly better than the car... before anybody else quips

[Poppiecock]

Legacywr said:

This could make an interesting company car, I wonder what the BiK will look like?

Slightly better than the car... before anybody else quips

It’ll be under £200 a month for a 40% taxpayer.

[Stupeo]

My last car was an M135i and my current car is a 530e. Love both for what they are - this could tempt me back into a hot hatch!

[herebebeasties]

nickfrog said:

No. "Are they ? “ highlights the subjectivity of looks, which I think you now accept. Again, I don't understand what other people's view on the attractiveness of a design has to do with mine. I can't help liking them, it's not an opinion formed on rational thinking. It's like colours, some like blue, some like yellow etc
Besides, should we apply the sweeping statement to the entire range of BMW's? And what is a modern BMW? When did they start being unfathomly ugly?

Well obviously looks are subjective. Duh. I'm not a moron and thus don't "now accept" that in some kind of begrudging, newly-educated way as that's rather blindingly obvious.

What's also rather obvious from this very thread (and other recent ones on the X7 and to a lesser extent the new 8 series) is that a large number of people (not including you, yay!) do share the opinion that modern BMWs are ugly. 36 out of 58, currently, on my petty, small sample size, biased survey, but it seems a more general recurrent theme of recent BMW threads. Many people don't buy cars they think are ugly. (Yes, some do and good for them, that's not the point.) The point is that BMW is now missing out on those customers. Maybe they don't care as they think they'll sell more units to compensate in China, where tastes are somewhat different.

To address your other question: the ugly didn't happen overnight - it's been gradual as new models have come in. The enormous new grilles certainly do them no favours. The universal modern "fast car" trim fripperies of fake vents and slashes and carbon trinketry seems to work even less well with BMW's recent design language that the industry average too (at least in my eyes), and IMO that doesn't help them, due to the sort of trim-line-inflation that happens over time.

And no, it's not absolutely the entire range, but IMO it's not that far off. Even the new Z4 is fussy and (to my eyes) far from elegant. Ugly in absolute terms? Maybe not quite, but certainly I personally find it ugly for a sports car. (And yes, the new Supra is pretty ugly too, IMO, just for balance.)

Have I qualified the above obviously personal viewpoints on aesthetics with enough "IMO" and "personally" and the like to avoid your wrath? I hope so. Have a nice day.

[Kawasicki]

SOL111 said:

RobM77 said:

I don't mean to be negative, but why's it so tall? Height is a disaster for performance. And why's it 4WD? The E92 M3 was fine with 400bhp and rear drive, so why not this? If they really think 4WD is necessary at that power output, then why not 300bhp and rear drive? 400bhp will only be usable on the road now and then, so we might as well have RWD, which is enjoyable all the time, and 300bhp!

BMW will and must evolve as time goes on, but these are their core values that they've abandoned - BMWs have always been rear drive and lower than other cars. That's the whole point - it's what makes them drive so well and so much better than taller front and four wheel drive cars from other manufacturers. What's the USP of this car over an A45 AMG now?

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 13th August 08:27

I think the height is an illusion as there's not much difference between the outgoing model.

The 4WD is for packaging as it's a FWD setup for the rest of the range.

I agree about the 4WD but it seems BMW are prioritising their main customer base, who have generally complained about space (rear seat and boot) and aren't bothered about dynamics. They've addressed this so will keep more people happier than the likes of us.

From the reviews, it's supposed to be pretty good and gather it's a better steer than previously.

Have they addressed the rear seat space and boot space? The new 1 series is barely bigger than the old one. If it was much bigger it would be bigger than the 3 series.

It’s a cost saving drive. Nothing more.

[nickfrog]

herebebeasties said:

nickfrog said:

No. "Are they ? “ highlights the subjectivity of looks, which I think you now accept. Again, I don't understand what other people's view on the attractiveness of a design has to do with mine. I can't help liking them, it's not an opinion formed on rational thinking. It's like colours, some like blue, some like yellow etc
Besides, should we apply the sweeping statement to the entire range of BMW's? And what is a modern BMW? When did they start being unfathomly ugly?

Well obviously looks are subjective. Duh. I'm not a moron and thus don't "now accept" that in some kind of begrudging, newly-educated way as that's rather blindingly obvious.

What's also rather obvious from this very thread (and other recent ones on the X7 and to a lesser extent the new 8 series) is that a large number of people (not including you, yay!) do share the opinion that modern BMWs are ugly. 36 out of 58, currently, on my petty, small sample size, biased survey, but it seems a more general recurrent theme of recent BMW threads. Many people don't buy cars they think are ugly. (Yes, some do and good for them, that's not the point.) The point is that BMW is now missing out on those customers. Maybe they don't care as they think they'll sell more units to compensate in China, where tastes are somewhat different.

To address your other question: the ugly didn't happen overnight - it's been gradual as new models have come in. The enormous new grilles certainly do them no favours. The universal modern "fast car" trim fripperies of fake vents and slashes and carbon trinketry seems to work even less well with BMW's recent design language that the industry average too (at least in my eyes), and IMO that doesn't help them, due to the sort of trim-line-inflation that happens over time.

And no, it's not absolutely the entire range, but IMO it's not that far off. Even the new Z4 is fussy and (to my eyes) far from elegant. Ugly in absolute terms? Maybe not quite, but certainly I personally find it ugly for a sports car. (And yes, the new Supra is pretty ugly too, IMO, just for balance.)

Have I qualified the above obviously personal viewpoints on aesthetics with enough "IMO" and "personally" and the like to avoid your wrath? I hope so. Have a nice day.

Thank you. I don't see any wrath, just a conversation, but sorry if I have hurt your feelings

You survey is indeed of no value. And even if it was, I still don't get why other people's design preference have anything to do with it. Not that I know that I am in a minority although perhaps BMW's sales figures reflect that, or perhaps they don't, as on PH people often find cars they're not in the market for ugly/slow/heavy/whatever, as part of the systemic negativity.

I find that BMW's design over the past 20 years has been controversial though. The cars come out, people on PH hate them. 10 years later, people find the design timeless. The E60 is a case in point, absolutely slated when it came out.

PS - looking at sales figures, it would seem that BMW's UK market share in 2018 was identical to Mercedes' and larger than Audi's so unless indeed a lot of people buy them despite finding them ugly, your theory doesn't really hold water under the scrutiny of this data although perhaps their market share has since then collapsed or will be hit because of the recent design changes ? https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...

Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 13th August 18:33

[herebebeasties]

nickfrog said:

Thank you. I don't see any wrath, just a conversation, but sorry if I have hurt your feelings

You survey is indeed of no value. And even if it was, I still don't get why other people's design preference have anything to do with it. Not that I know that I am in a minority although perhaps BMW's sales figures reflect that, or perhaps they don't, as on PH people often find cars they're not in the market for ugly/slow/heavy/whatever, as part of the systemic negativity.

I find that BMW's design over the past 20 years has been controversial though. The cars come out, people on PH hate them. 10 years later, people find the design timeless. The E60 is a case in point, absolutely slated when it came out.

PS - looking at sales figures, it would seem that BMW's UK market share in 2018 was identical to Mercedes' and larger than Audi's so unless indeed a lot of people buy them despite finding them ugly, your theory doesn't really hold water under the scrutiny of this data although perhaps their market share has since then collapsed or will be hit because of the recent design changes ? https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-ne...

No feelings hurt. You have yet to insult anything other than my admittedly questionable intelligence, and even that rather obliquely.

Other people's design preference has nothing to do with yours. It does have to do with sales figures, if it reaches a critical mass of negative consensus. Has that happened? I don't know, but 2019 does seem like a particular low point for BMW aesthetics (again in my opinion, but also seemingly that of many others, although exactly how many is obviously up for debate). I guess the sales figures will tell all. I'm probably wrong, as ever.

It could be worse - they could be putting diesels in their supposedly sporty models for the UK market. But no one would be so insane as to do that, eh?

Edited by herebebeasties on Tuesday 13th August 21:16