RE: 400hp BMW M140e hybrid due next year
Discussion
nickfrog said:
herebebeasties said:
nickfrog said:
herebebeasties said:
They used to make very elegant cars but modern BMWs are just unfathomably ugly.
Are they? Do you mean objectively? I think they look great compared to old BMW's., so I am wondering if it's not a subjective thing, you never know 
https://xoyondo.com/ap/qXMYMARg3cD4Sy2
Edited by herebebeasties on Monday 12th August 22:10
Besides, it's also entirely conceivable that some buy BMWs for the way they drive, you never know.
NDNDNDND said:
nickfrog said:
herebebeasties said:
nickfrog said:
herebebeasties said:
They used to make very elegant cars but modern BMWs are just unfathomably ugly.
Are they? Do you mean objectively? I think they look great compared to old BMW's., so I am wondering if it's not a subjective thing, you never know https://xoyondo.com/ap/qXMYMARg3cD4Sy2
Edited by herebebeasties on Monday 12th August 22:10
Besides, it's also entirely conceivable that some buy BMWs for the way they drive, you never know.
Looks though are entirely separate from driving, and most people will want a car they like or at least don't mind the looks of. For example, how a car drives is the most important thing for me, but I don't completely ignore the looks. As you say though, looks are entirely subjective. One thing that I think is much more objective is how bling/flashy a car is; most people would agree on that on a scale of 1 to 10. What then differs between people is how flashy they want their car to look. The 5 series has always been understated for example, which I like. These latest enormous grills are, in my own opinion, too garish and flashy for me and yes, if I found another rear drive saloon drove equally as well (Jag, Alfa etc), it would steer me away from BMW to buy a more understated looking car.
nickfrog said:
NDNDNDND said:
The thing is, it would seem very few people care about the way BMWs drive. That's why the new 1-series is FWD.
Why can't a FWD be a good steer? If anyone, BMW can probably do a very good job. Besides, I believe you can buy a 2 series and a 3 series in RWD. Many reviewers say you have to be absolutely on it to feel that it’s FWD too.
I’m looking forward to trying one. I assume we will see a 125xe as well as an M140xe, just hope the latter is under £40k as I don’t really need a massive company car, especially if the alternative is an M140xe.
RobM77 said:
I'm extremely sceptical of that! It's a phrase we hear a lot, and then you try the car in question and nope, it's very obviously FWD.
True, that's happened to me when swapping the M135i for the Megane RS. The Megane was set up far more neutrally and was the better drivers car by quite a margin. The BMW would understeer and even push understeer under a moderate throttle and was far less adjustable. RobM77 said:
Poppiecock said:
Many reviewers say you have to be absolutely on it to feel that it’s FWD too.
I'm extremely sceptical of that! It's a phrase we hear a lot, and then you try the car in question and nope, it's very obviously FWD.
nickfrog said:
The Megane was set up far more neutrally and was the better drivers car by quite a margin. The BMW would understeer and even push understeer under a moderate throttle and was far less adjustable.
That's the soft suspension of the M135 (not sure no doubt it's going to compare unfavorably with an RS, regardless of driven wheels.nickfrog said:
RobM77 said:
I'm extremely sceptical of that! It's a phrase we hear a lot, and then you try the car in question and nope, it's very obviously FWD.
True, that's happened to me when swapping the M135i for the Megane RS. The Megane was set up far more neutrally and was the better drivers car by quite a margin. The BMW would understeer and even push understeer under a moderate throttle and was far less adjustable. What you say is pretty accurate - the facets of handling that you've listed do normally define a good performance FWD car and they run that very particular setup to get around being FWD. The same is true of an Integra Type R, Clio 172/182/200, 205 GTi etc. Most RWD cars, in contrast, have an inherent balance, so tend to run much more relaxed setups, again linked to the characteristics of being RWD, which give the behaviour you describe. This further compounds my point and makes the differences between typical FWD and RWD performance cars even more obvious when we're talking performance cars such as you describe. The differences are much more subtle in cars tuned for comfort (e.g. E Class vs A6), but still there. I've driven a lot of cars, but have never driven a FWD car that "feels RWD" or vice versa, as people often suggest (and as quoted above) - in my experience to date that is a nonsense comment.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 14th August 11:46
nickfrog said:
NDNDNDND said:
The thing is, it would seem very few people care about the way BMWs drive. That's why the new 1-series is FWD.
Why can't a FWD be a good steer? If anyone, BMW can probably do a very good job. Besides, I believe you can buy a 2 series and a 3 series in RWD. Steering is a bit wooly, the whole thing never feels particularly planted, by normal standards its not bad but as a hot hatch model with sporting pretensions it is just too loose and vague, coupled with the lack of an lsd it makes it a bit of a blunt instrument. I like it as a car but never want to just go out for a drive for no reason.
It will sort of come to life a bit if you turn the ESP off, grab it by the scruff and use the paddles to change gear but that exacerbates the other issues.
Its a great package and the ride isnt too bad but I think so many people were a bit overawed with the standard grunt and tunability offered for the price.
Mine has only done 16k, had it since 8k so its not worn out, to make it the car it should be people list M4 LCA's, springs, dampers, spacers and an LSD but I dont want to start replacing everything, will just hang on and next time get something that fully works as a drivers car out of the box, and it would still have woolly steering and an auto box anyway.
The new one just sort of looks like a variation on the medium hatch theme, its a medium hatch, BMW cant do anything any other manufacturer can do in that format so of course they will all look a bit generic, the old one series only looked a bit different due to having a longitudinal six cylinder engine and rwd, I dont mind the looks of the new one and we always kind of get used to them, never minded the old one, well the first One series always looked a bit sad, later ones were much better.
Be goodto try the new M135i, might not be as fast outright but it wont be struggling to put it down in the wet, probably a better all rounder/daily in that respect.
The new M140e is interesting, look forward to seeing the reviews, it sort of sounds a bit wrong when described, but can never judge off a description.
J4CKO said:
I have the old one and I think there are so many flaws with the steering and general handling it detracts from the fact its RWD. It drives fairly well as a car, the auto box is peach but I don't think it delivers enough as a drivers car, or maybe I am expecting a bit much ?
Steering is a bit wooly, the whole thing never feels particularly planted, by normal standards its not bad but as a hot hatch model with sporting pretensions it is just too loose and vague, coupled with the lack of an lsd it makes it a bit of a blunt instrument. I like it as a car but never want to just go out for a drive for no reason.
It will sort of come to life a bit if you turn the ESP off, grab it by the scruff and use the paddles to change gear but that exacerbates the other issues.
Its a great package and the ride isnt too bad but I think so many people were a bit overawed with the standard grunt and tunability offered for the price.
Mine has only done 16k, had it since 8k so its not worn out, to make it the car it should be people list M4 LCA's, springs, dampers, spacers and an LSD but I dont want to start replacing everything, will just hang on and next time get something that fully works as a drivers car out of the box, and it would still have woolly steering and an auto box anyway.
The new one just sort of looks like a variation on the medium hatch theme, its a medium hatch, BMW cant do anything any other manufacturer can do in that format so of course they will all look a bit generic, the old one series only looked a bit different due to having a longitudinal six cylinder engine and rwd, I dont mind the looks of the new one and we always kind of get used to them, never minded the old one, well the first One series always looked a bit sad, later ones were much better.
Be goodto try the new M135i, might not be as fast outright but it wont be struggling to put it down in the wet, probably a better all rounder/daily in that respect.
The new M140e is interesting, look forward to seeing the reviews, it sort of sounds a bit wrong when described, but can never judge off a description.
This completely and matches my sentiments.Steering is a bit wooly, the whole thing never feels particularly planted, by normal standards its not bad but as a hot hatch model with sporting pretensions it is just too loose and vague, coupled with the lack of an lsd it makes it a bit of a blunt instrument. I like it as a car but never want to just go out for a drive for no reason.
It will sort of come to life a bit if you turn the ESP off, grab it by the scruff and use the paddles to change gear but that exacerbates the other issues.
Its a great package and the ride isnt too bad but I think so many people were a bit overawed with the standard grunt and tunability offered for the price.
Mine has only done 16k, had it since 8k so its not worn out, to make it the car it should be people list M4 LCA's, springs, dampers, spacers and an LSD but I dont want to start replacing everything, will just hang on and next time get something that fully works as a drivers car out of the box, and it would still have woolly steering and an auto box anyway.
The new one just sort of looks like a variation on the medium hatch theme, its a medium hatch, BMW cant do anything any other manufacturer can do in that format so of course they will all look a bit generic, the old one series only looked a bit different due to having a longitudinal six cylinder engine and rwd, I dont mind the looks of the new one and we always kind of get used to them, never minded the old one, well the first One series always looked a bit sad, later ones were much better.
Be goodto try the new M135i, might not be as fast outright but it wont be struggling to put it down in the wet, probably a better all rounder/daily in that respect.
The new M140e is interesting, look forward to seeing the reviews, it sort of sounds a bit wrong when described, but can never judge off a description.
I wanted to love the car but it disappointed so much. The engine and gearbox being so peachy just made it all the more frustrating.
So much so that I'd rather a properly sorted fwd or 4wd over the rwd M140i.
Edited by SOL111 on Wednesday 14th August 11:51
SOL111 said:
J4CKO said:
I have the old one and I think there are so many flaws with the steering and general handling it detracts from the fact its RWD. It drives fairly well as a car, the auto box is peach but I don't think it delivers enough as a drivers car, or maybe I am expecting a bit much ?
Steering is a bit wooly, the whole thing never feels particularly planted, by normal standards its not bad but as a hot hatch model with sporting pretensions it is just too loose and vague, coupled with the lack of an lsd it makes it a bit of a blunt instrument. I like it as a car but never want to just go out for a drive for no reason.
It will sort of come to life a bit if you turn the ESP off, grab it by the scruff and use the paddles to change gear but that exacerbates the other issues.
Its a great package and the ride isnt too bad but I think so many people were a bit overawed with the standard grunt and tunability offered for the price.
Mine has only done 16k, had it since 8k so its not worn out, to make it the car it should be people list M4 LCA's, springs, dampers, spacers and an LSD but I dont want to start replacing everything, will just hang on and next time get something that fully works as a drivers car out of the box, and it would still have woolly steering and an auto box anyway.
The new one just sort of looks like a variation on the medium hatch theme, its a medium hatch, BMW cant do anything any other manufacturer can do in that format so of course they will all look a bit generic, the old one series only looked a bit different due to having a longitudinal six cylinder engine and rwd, I dont mind the looks of the new one and we always kind of get used to them, never minded the old one, well the first One series always looked a bit sad, later ones were much better.
Be goodto try the new M135i, might not be as fast outright but it wont be struggling to put it down in the wet, probably a better all rounder/daily in that respect.
The new M140e is interesting, look forward to seeing the reviews, it sort of sounds a bit wrong when described, but can never judge off a description.
This completely and matches my sentiments.Steering is a bit wooly, the whole thing never feels particularly planted, by normal standards its not bad but as a hot hatch model with sporting pretensions it is just too loose and vague, coupled with the lack of an lsd it makes it a bit of a blunt instrument. I like it as a car but never want to just go out for a drive for no reason.
It will sort of come to life a bit if you turn the ESP off, grab it by the scruff and use the paddles to change gear but that exacerbates the other issues.
Its a great package and the ride isnt too bad but I think so many people were a bit overawed with the standard grunt and tunability offered for the price.
Mine has only done 16k, had it since 8k so its not worn out, to make it the car it should be people list M4 LCA's, springs, dampers, spacers and an LSD but I dont want to start replacing everything, will just hang on and next time get something that fully works as a drivers car out of the box, and it would still have woolly steering and an auto box anyway.
The new one just sort of looks like a variation on the medium hatch theme, its a medium hatch, BMW cant do anything any other manufacturer can do in that format so of course they will all look a bit generic, the old one series only looked a bit different due to having a longitudinal six cylinder engine and rwd, I dont mind the looks of the new one and we always kind of get used to them, never minded the old one, well the first One series always looked a bit sad, later ones were much better.
Be goodto try the new M135i, might not be as fast outright but it wont be struggling to put it down in the wet, probably a better all rounder/daily in that respect.
The new M140e is interesting, look forward to seeing the reviews, it sort of sounds a bit wrong when described, but can never judge off a description.
I wanted to love the car but it disappointed so much. The engine and gearbox being so peachy just made it all the more frustrating.
So much so that I'd rather a properly sorted fwd or 4wd over the rwd M140i.
Edited by SOL111 on Wednesday 14th August 11:51
The actual M cars that I've driven have all been very good indeed, and this is usually due to a complete re-engineering of the car. For example, the diff on most M cars is a wonderfully engineered LSD, the suspension has been tuned specifically for the larger wheels and tyres offered, and the throttle map re-programmed to either remove the lag (e.g. E92 M3) or minimise it (e.g. E46 M3). The same applies to aftermarket BMW specialists Birds, who have some very well judged suspension kits and Quaiffe diffs.
Going further back in time, the E30 and E36 models had some fantastic 'Sport' models, and I really enjoyed my E36 328i Sport coupé for example; it's mainly with post-E46 that I've found the problems I describe above.
The best BMWs I've driven in recent years have been lower powered models sat on M-Sport suspension, the actual M cars, and anything that Birds have had a say in. Between those three high points have been an awful lot of lemons imho.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 14th August 12:09
SOL111 said:
This completely and matches my sentiments.
I wanted to love the car but it disappointed so much. The engine and gearbox being so peachy just made it all the more frustrating.
So much so that I'd rather a properly sorted fwd or 4wd over the rwd M140i.
Another here with similar sentiments.I wanted to love the car but it disappointed so much. The engine and gearbox being so peachy just made it all the more frustrating.
So much so that I'd rather a properly sorted fwd or 4wd over the rwd M140i.
Edited by SOL111 on Wednesday 14th August 11:51
But I will offer the review that I think the the 140 is a great car, BUT I don’t feel it’s a great hot hatch.
I had an S3 previously, which was a good hot hatch, (expect Audi understeer trolling and golf R comparisons in bound), it steered more precisely than the 140, went like a rocket and for fast driving I thought the gearbox and engine combo was better.
But aside being good when really on it; it had nothing else to offer.
I view the 140 as better, the engine gearbox combo makes for very satisfying fast progress all the time, makes a nice noise and makes its Rwdness known on command.
I think this new one may be a great hot hatch, but maybe not such a good car as the old.
JD said:
SOL111 said:
This completely and matches my sentiments.
I wanted to love the car but it disappointed so much. The engine and gearbox being so peachy just made it all the more frustrating.
So much so that I'd rather a properly sorted fwd or 4wd over the rwd M140i.
Another here with similar sentiments.I wanted to love the car but it disappointed so much. The engine and gearbox being so peachy just made it all the more frustrating.
So much so that I'd rather a properly sorted fwd or 4wd over the rwd M140i.
Edited by SOL111 on Wednesday 14th August 11:51
But I will offer the review that I think the the 140 is a great car, BUT I don’t feel it’s a great hot hatch.
I had an S3 previously, which was a good hot hatch, (expect Audi understeer trolling and golf R comparisons in bound), it steered more precisely than the 140, went like a rocket and for fast driving I thought the gearbox and engine combo was better.
But aside being good when really on it; it had nothing else to offer.
I view the 140 as better, the engine gearbox combo makes for very satisfying fast progress all the time, makes a nice noise and makes its Rwdness known on command.
I think this new one may be a great hot hatch, but maybe not such a good car as the old.
A manual with the mods I mentioned would be more hot hatch I expect, and even then its RWD which isnt very hot hatchy, as standard it doesnt really fit easily in the Hot Hatch box.
J4CKO said:
Absolutely, its a great "something", but not a hot hatch, its more sort of a more pointy mini barge/hatchback GT than traditional hot hatch, especially with an auto box.
A manual with the mods I mentioned would be more hot hatch I expect, and even then its RWD which isnt very hot hatchy, as standard it doesnt really fit easily in the Hot Hatch box.
Yep; with the next gen of hatches coming out a rwd 140 is just going to look slow and thirsty.A manual with the mods I mentioned would be more hot hatch I expect, and even then its RWD which isnt very hot hatchy, as standard it doesnt really fit easily in the Hot Hatch box.
Current one is great all rounder (if you ignore wet days, or cold days, or snow days ) that can just about keep up with the completion by having lots of power, but that won’t work next time.
RobM77 said:
As a general rule, over recent years I've usually found BMW's 'just sub M car' models not very rewarding, as if they're pushing a normal saloon chassis too far. Typical problems include a choppy ride from large wheels, the DBW throttle lag that starts to really matter when you have more power under your right foot, and the brake controlled open diff feeling out of its depth managing the higher power output than the median cars in the range its presumably calibrated for.
The actual M cars that I've driven have all been very good indeed, and this is usually due to a complete re-engineering of the car. For example, the diff on most M cars is a wonderfully engineered LSD, the suspension has been tuned specifically for the larger wheels and tyres offered, and the throttle map re-programmed to either remove the lag (e.g. E92 M3) or minimise it (e.g. E46 M3). The same applies to aftermarket BMW specialists Birds, who have some very well judged suspension kits and Quaiffe diffs.
Going further back in time, the E30 and E36 models had some fantastic 'Sport' models, and I really enjoyed my E36 328i Sport coupé for example; it's mainly with post-E46 that I've found the problems I describe above.
The best BMWs I've driven in recent years have been lower powered models sat on M-Sport suspension, the actual M cars, and anything that Birds have had a say in. Between those three high points have been an awful lot of lemons imho.
Should have spoken to you before I bought it The actual M cars that I've driven have all been very good indeed, and this is usually due to a complete re-engineering of the car. For example, the diff on most M cars is a wonderfully engineered LSD, the suspension has been tuned specifically for the larger wheels and tyres offered, and the throttle map re-programmed to either remove the lag (e.g. E92 M3) or minimise it (e.g. E46 M3). The same applies to aftermarket BMW specialists Birds, who have some very well judged suspension kits and Quaiffe diffs.
Going further back in time, the E30 and E36 models had some fantastic 'Sport' models, and I really enjoyed my E36 328i Sport coupé for example; it's mainly with post-E46 that I've found the problems I describe above.
The best BMWs I've driven in recent years have been lower powered models sat on M-Sport suspension, the actual M cars, and anything that Birds have had a say in. Between those three high points have been an awful lot of lemons imho.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 14th August 12:09
Your assessment sounds spot on tbh but am wondering if you've also driven the 340i or 440i? These aren't strictly sub M cars but big engined versions. I'm tempted by a 440i for the wife but could be a similar thing. I know a test drive is a must but none of the 1 series foibles came out on a 20 minute test drive.
Interesting what you say about Birds though. If I were buying 2nd hand and out of warranty I'd definitely consider.
SOL111 said:
RobM77 said:
As a general rule, over recent years I've usually found BMW's 'just sub M car' models not very rewarding, as if they're pushing a normal saloon chassis too far. Typical problems include a choppy ride from large wheels, the DBW throttle lag that starts to really matter when you have more power under your right foot, and the brake controlled open diff feeling out of its depth managing the higher power output than the median cars in the range its presumably calibrated for.
The actual M cars that I've driven have all been very good indeed, and this is usually due to a complete re-engineering of the car. For example, the diff on most M cars is a wonderfully engineered LSD, the suspension has been tuned specifically for the larger wheels and tyres offered, and the throttle map re-programmed to either remove the lag (e.g. E92 M3) or minimise it (e.g. E46 M3). The same applies to aftermarket BMW specialists Birds, who have some very well judged suspension kits and Quaiffe diffs.
Going further back in time, the E30 and E36 models had some fantastic 'Sport' models, and I really enjoyed my E36 328i Sport coupé for example; it's mainly with post-E46 that I've found the problems I describe above.
The best BMWs I've driven in recent years have been lower powered models sat on M-Sport suspension, the actual M cars, and anything that Birds have had a say in. Between those three high points have been an awful lot of lemons imho.
Should have spoken to you before I bought it The actual M cars that I've driven have all been very good indeed, and this is usually due to a complete re-engineering of the car. For example, the diff on most M cars is a wonderfully engineered LSD, the suspension has been tuned specifically for the larger wheels and tyres offered, and the throttle map re-programmed to either remove the lag (e.g. E92 M3) or minimise it (e.g. E46 M3). The same applies to aftermarket BMW specialists Birds, who have some very well judged suspension kits and Quaiffe diffs.
Going further back in time, the E30 and E36 models had some fantastic 'Sport' models, and I really enjoyed my E36 328i Sport coupé for example; it's mainly with post-E46 that I've found the problems I describe above.
The best BMWs I've driven in recent years have been lower powered models sat on M-Sport suspension, the actual M cars, and anything that Birds have had a say in. Between those three high points have been an awful lot of lemons imho.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 14th August 12:09
Your assessment sounds spot on tbh but am wondering if you've also driven the 340i or 440i? These aren't strictly sub M cars but big engined versions. I'm tempted by a 440i for the wife but could be a similar thing. I know a test drive is a must but none of the 1 series foibles came out on a 20 minute test drive.
Interesting what you say about Birds though. If I were buying 2nd hand and out of warranty I'd definitely consider.
RobM77 said:
Sorry, I've not tried either of those. I know what you mean about short test drives, and you're also subject to the type of roads you drive the car on, and also what the salesman's like. Ideally I'd like an hour on my own in a car to make my mind up. For a car enthusiast, buying a car is a major decision! I did manage to get a day with a new F30 320d recently, by requesting it as a courtesy car during a service; and that was very revealing and informative. I wrote a full review, but haven't posted it for fear of the backlash! I wasn't kind to it!
Interesting. The new 320d is supposed to be quite good but take all YouTube reviews with a pinch of salt.Please do post. Negative reviews are valuable if they're backed up with rationale. Sadly we're overrun with gushing reviews continuously. To the point where it's impossible to know what's real.
The M2 was a bit like that. It was the best thing since sliced bread but suddenly had lots of flaws when the M2C came out.
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