RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote
Discussion
The market for such wonderful cars sadly is on the way out, both in Britain and in the rest of Europe. Most so-called enthusiast young drivers in the UK drive slow diesel cars with idiotic dump valves and slammed suspensions. They drive nose to tail through town centres on weekend nights, slowly. They have as much interest in good ol' atmo V8s as I do in buying an alligator. The market for trad. sports cars in Europe is in a cultural decline. I'm in my 50s, and cars were a rite of passage for me - an ongoing fascination / affliction; and, as a rural kid, a pre-requisite if you were to have any chance of a pull. But apart from a few that's in the aforementioned slammed diesel droners, too many young people simply don't care any more, about any cars. In my direct experience of sharing offices with under-30s that do drive, many of them can't change a wheel and, shockingly to me, are unashamed about this! Dating apps, lumberjack beards (to cover up the nerdiness), electric scooters, vaping; generally being effete and useless - that's where it's at folks! And the hope that a trade deal with the US would have no wider changes re internal UK governance is misplaced. Any trade deal with the US will come bundled with a secret, mandatory ISDS mechanism which will make British lawmakers answerable to foreign companies; de facto giving foreign companies veto rights over British laws and rendering British courts redundant. See: http://ccsi.columbia.edu/files/2015/05/Investor-St...
Taking back control Jesus wept.
Taking back control Jesus wept.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 20th August 00:24
tommy1973s said:
The market for such wonderful cars sadly is on the way out, both in Britain and in the rest of Europe. Most so-called enthusiast young drivers in the UK drive slow diesel cars with idiotic dump valves and slammed suspensions. They drive nose to tail through town centres on weekend nights, slowly. They have as much interest in good ol' atmo V8s as I do in buying an alligator. The market for trad. sports cars in Europe is in a cultural decline. I'm in my 50s, and cars were a rite of passage for me - an ongoing fascination / affliction; and, as a rural kid, a pre-requisite if you were to have any chance of a pull. But apart from a few that's in the aforementioned slammed diesel droners, too many young people simply don't care any more, about any cars. In my direct experience of sharing offices with under-30s that do drive, many of them can't change a wheel and, shockingly to me, are unashamed about this! Dating apps, lumberjack beards (to cover up the nerdiness), electric scooters, vaping; generally being effete and useless
The youth of today.Never heard that before...
rodericb said:
If Lotus did make that new Esprit and plonked the Toyota 2UR-GSE V8 into it (as per the Lexus LC500) how close could they get it to the Corvette pricing? Offset the increased cost of the engine and the transmission with possibly lower overheads and more generic parts in the Lotus and the obvious "shortcuts" which the Lotus would (should?) come with - off the shelf bits like the entertainment/satnav system.
Looking at the current price of their range, quite a way off I'd have thought! The economies of scale are just so different between Lotus and Chevrolet.Back in the day I wish TVR had just kept things simple. I'd have narrowed it down to one car, the Griffith. Do one thing perfectly, rather than multiple things with issues.
I'd have done a deal to put crate LS motors in them from the factory. Then I'd have added a more rigid space frame chassis. The exterior and interior were lovely and could have been left completely alone. Simply concentrate on making them drive and run perfectly. The Griffith would have blossomed into the UK's bullet proof modern era Cobra.
Alas, it went all overly complex and went directly down the toilet. Such is the way with so many companies, far beyond just the automotive arena. People have no concept of keeping things focused and simple.
I'd have done a deal to put crate LS motors in them from the factory. Then I'd have added a more rigid space frame chassis. The exterior and interior were lovely and could have been left completely alone. Simply concentrate on making them drive and run perfectly. The Griffith would have blossomed into the UK's bullet proof modern era Cobra.
Alas, it went all overly complex and went directly down the toilet. Such is the way with so many companies, far beyond just the automotive arena. People have no concept of keeping things focused and simple.
CDP said:
This.
For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
I agree in theory, but when Marcos tried this exact route, they failed with the TSO which was a great shame as I had a Marcos Mantis and loved it For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/marcos/tso/21078/200...
CDP said:
I suspect the Chevy would have been a lot cheaper as it's a pushrod built in the millions rather than a quad cam 32V. A Chimera wasn't really about top end power so much as instant torque and a V8 woofle.
I agree. Although was thinking more of the relationship TVR already had with the Rover Group. Suspect BMW might be partly to blame here though. As the RV8 carried on for a few more years (2004 IIRC) with Land Rover. So there may have been no immediate need for TVR to have changed engines.JONSCZ said:
CDP said:
This.
For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
I agree in theory, but when Marcos tried this exact route, they failed with the TSO which was a great shame as I had a Marcos Mantis and loved it For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/marcos/tso/21078/200...
I think it is the commerical pressure to be ever expanding, rather than sticking at doing something you do well.
The only car compnay I can really think of that have done this is Caterham. While the Se7en has evolved. It is still largely the same product they are selling. They did venture out with expansion plans withthe 21, but realised they were better off sticking to what they knew. And low and behold they are still here today.
charles205xs said:
I'd take the Alpine any day.
It definitely looks loads better than the C8, which looks like a bad knock off of the already not pretty new NSX.Without considering price, and everybody knows the C8 won't stay that cheap once it starts selling, as it happened to the C7, the A110 is a much cooler car. Much better looking and knowing GM, probably also better finished. If Alpine ever decides to drop a V6 version is game over. The Alpine would become the best European small sports car. At least till Alfa decides to get off its arse and launch a GTV already!
unsprung said:
daltonr said:
Love 'vettes - but new price, LHD and their width would not work for me on UK roads. What we need is all the V8 drama, in a smaller and fantastic coupe package which is at UK sportscar proportions, sounds like thunder, revs to 7000rpm, drives on the throttle and is generally a good-time car for a fraction of the price. This and a vision for a "UK-'vette" was exactly what I had in mind with mine...
Outstanding. Resourceful !!Your written introduction reads like an ideal definition for a performance car. Numerous elements well considered. Hopefully you won't mind too much if there are a couple of questions (I can't be the only one who's curious
)-- Did the lump more or less just drop in? Or was there significant reconstruction of the firewall and/or tunnel?
-- Any enhancements / substitutions regarding the transmission and the rear end?
Well full disclosure, I bought the car with the main conversion already done!
These kind of conversions were fairly common in their day in the US so that's where the majority of the stuff came from. The conversion was with a low mileage LS1 and T56 6 speed gearbox sourced from Cleveland–Pic-A-Part and shipped from the US with all accessories and sensors required to drop it straight in (in theory). Hinson Super Cars supplied their install kit with new front subframe. Standard diff but a new prop shaft and separate hugely strong rear subframe with torque arm and gearbox mount came from Canada and does the job nicely of keeping this traditionally weak point in tuned RX7s in place without exploding!
End result in mild tune delivers 402bhp on a super hot day so likely a little more in ideal conditions. Exhaust is a single back box only - I have tested this at 116db! Weight distro is not bad and the whole package is now only 1340kg which I believe is only ~40kg heavier than the original Japanese twin turbo auto touring - the LS1/T56 is a pretty light package.
There is still work to do including suspension, track-friendly switchable exhaust, lowering the seats probably via minor surgery on the floor, interior, a/c reinstate, procharger centrifugal supercharger and some drivetrain strengthening depending on how much power I want to make - 500-600 seems reasonable to make decent progress on track and road I would say?.
daltonr said:
Hi thanks for asking!
Well full disclosure, I bought the car with the main conversion already done!
These kind of conversions were fairly common in their day in the US so that's where the majority of the stuff came from. The conversion was with a low mileage LS1 and T56 6 speed gearbox sourced from Cleveland–Pic-A-Part and shipped from the US with all accessories and sensors required to drop it straight in (in theory). Hinson Super Cars supplied their install kit with new front subframe. Standard diff but a new prop shaft and separate hugely strong rear subframe with torque arm and gearbox mount came from Canada and does the job nicely of keeping this traditionally weak point in tuned RX7s in place without exploding!
End result in mild tune delivers 402bhp on a super hot day so likely a little more in ideal conditions. Exhaust is a single back box only - I have tested this at 116db! Weight distro is not bad and the whole package is now only 1340kg which I believe is only ~40kg heavier than the original Japanese twin turbo auto touring - the LS1/T56 is a pretty light package.
There is still work to do including suspension, track-friendly switchable exhaust, lowering the seats probably via minor surgery on the floor, interior, a/c reinstate, procharger centrifugal supercharger and some drivetrain strengthening depending on how much power I want to make - 500-600 seems reasonable to make decent progress on track and road I would say?.
Well, it looks like a joy to own and drive. Congratulations.Well full disclosure, I bought the car with the main conversion already done!
These kind of conversions were fairly common in their day in the US so that's where the majority of the stuff came from. The conversion was with a low mileage LS1 and T56 6 speed gearbox sourced from Cleveland–Pic-A-Part and shipped from the US with all accessories and sensors required to drop it straight in (in theory). Hinson Super Cars supplied their install kit with new front subframe. Standard diff but a new prop shaft and separate hugely strong rear subframe with torque arm and gearbox mount came from Canada and does the job nicely of keeping this traditionally weak point in tuned RX7s in place without exploding!
End result in mild tune delivers 402bhp on a super hot day so likely a little more in ideal conditions. Exhaust is a single back box only - I have tested this at 116db! Weight distro is not bad and the whole package is now only 1340kg which I believe is only ~40kg heavier than the original Japanese twin turbo auto touring - the LS1/T56 is a pretty light package.
There is still work to do including suspension, track-friendly switchable exhaust, lowering the seats probably via minor surgery on the floor, interior, a/c reinstate, procharger centrifugal supercharger and some drivetrain strengthening depending on how much power I want to make - 500-600 seems reasonable to make decent progress on track and road I would say?.
A centrifugal supercharger tends to get my vote (over the positive displacement variety) because its power delivery builds incrementally in the manner of a normally-aspirated engine. And because the packaging is more flexible in terms of under-bonnet placement. Can run a cooler intake charge as well.
On your car, however, I would go for a mild cam and heads. And avoid the added weight of a supercharger setup. Something circa 475 hp in a car like yours would be sufficient for me. If the LS1 already has a performance cam and heads, then I would see about dropping in an LS3 with hot cam and heads. But that's just me being speculative. And there is no one way to tune a car.
A 2007 C6 Corvette was 1442 kg, so you are doing well on weight in your car. As many on PH already know, an LS3 engine weighs approximately 188 kg. It's remarkably light compared to other V8s and even relative to some sixes and fours.
It's important to note that your car has the fit and finish as well as the crash engineering of a large OEM. This is no TVR or other low-volume car that was allowed to trade only with a waiver.
It's also interesting to note that this sort of conversion and all of its associated hardware were conceived in the US. So that country is not only providing value-for-money in a top-down manner (from large OEMs), but also in a bottom-up manner (via third-party conversion kits). The latter surely a DIY project for some.
A good sales year for new Corvettes is 30,000 units, give or take a few. When I purchase a new car in Ohio, the sales tax in my county is .0725 percent, dealer document fee is $250, one year of license tags is $35. Don't forget manufacturers and dealer discounts off sticker price on C7 closeouts can be about $10,000. A base Stingray 1LT like mine could retail for $47,000.
Ohioguy said:
A good sales year for new Corvettes is 30,000 units, give or take a few. When I purchase a new car in Ohio, the sales tax in my county is .0725 percent, dealer document fee is $250, one year of license tags is $35. Don't forget manufacturers and dealer discounts off sticker price on C7 closeouts can be about $10,000. A base Stingray 1LT like mine could retail for $47,000.
If you don't mind too much, there could be some clarifications for this UK-based forum... right?For example: you are not paying a sales tax of .0725 percent.
In the state of Ohio, the minimum state-wide general sales tax is 5.75 percent. Your local county or municipality adds another 1.5 percent on top of this. And you pay, on your car purchase, a total sales tax of 7.25 percent.
To register your car for one year, and to be issued number plates that go on your car, you pay a flat fee of $35. Unlike in the UK and other countries, this annual fee or tax is not related to the size of engine or to the sales price or to the vehicle's emissions. All light duty passenger vehicles in Ohio pay the same $35 as long as they are of the standard two-axle variety and as long as they weigh less than some chosen weight (say less than 6,000 pounds / 2722 kg).
You mention a dealer document fee, but in nearly all US states there is no legal basis for this fee levied by some dealerships. Some add it to the invoice, others don't. Those that do... may negotiate it downward or eliminate it in full. I personally never pay a document fee. Nor do many other petrolheads who negotiate on new cars.
You mention that the C7 is being discounted by both the OEM and dealerships. And that's correct. And if you buy a C7 and you happen to already own a Corvette, you can earn a further discount. Examples here.
satans worm said:
Another reason i believe the Vette works well in the US is due to the strong patriotism the US has.
Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
To this insight, I would add a general difference in mindset between manufacturers in US and Europe (including UK).Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
It seems that American manufacturers decide that if they can reduce the price from x to y, they will sell more, and build to a cost that enables them to make a profit at the higher volume.
On our side of the Atlantic, manufacturers generally consider what the market will stand in terms of price, so that if they can increase price from y to x, they can make the same profit with a lower volume. If the increase in selling price requires a few extra trinkets - especially when development of those trinkets is shared across an entire product group - that's seen as good marketing!
unsprung said:
Earlier in this thread, somebody commented that if a value-for-money performance car would be viable in Europe, an OEM would already have offered this. And that comment, for me, was profound.
Although the mid-engined architecture of the C8 Corvette is new, there is nothing new about the tremendous value delivered to consumers by Corvette over the years. And by the likes of Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang. We're talking half a century now.
Over on the other C8 Corvette thread, a PHer waxes poetic about hiring a C7 Z06 while visiting the States. The appeal of its uncommon thrills and everyday utility were, she wrote, "a no-brainer."
So this topic is not really about the C8. It's about macroeconomics and about distinct cultures or philosophies.
In this thread, people have mentioned fuel costs. And this, imo, is where the argument truly begins.
Pop over to Cincinnati, Ohio, and visit one of those cars and coffee events on the weekend. Inform folks there that, as of today, everybody must pay more for petrol. Double, treble, and even greater. Suddenly, a lot of car enthusiasts in Cincinnati, Ohio, are not so interested in a V8 performance car.
Are household incomes the same on both sides of the Atlantic? If not, deduct 20, 30 or 40 percent from the Cincinnati pay packet. How many folks at the cars and coffee event now intend to buy any sort of performance car?
Our redefined sports car segment is now much smaller and possibly unsustainable. And this becomes a vicious cycle. As another person has noted here, when sales volume declines, unit costs rise.
TL;DR: it's about purchasing power and/or disposable income
Im sorry but your wrong about the fuel costs. Yes years ago they had incredibly cheap fuel but i was over in California recently and there fuel costs are almost the same as ours if not more in some places. Although the mid-engined architecture of the C8 Corvette is new, there is nothing new about the tremendous value delivered to consumers by Corvette over the years. And by the likes of Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang. We're talking half a century now.
Over on the other C8 Corvette thread, a PHer waxes poetic about hiring a C7 Z06 while visiting the States. The appeal of its uncommon thrills and everyday utility were, she wrote, "a no-brainer."
So this topic is not really about the C8. It's about macroeconomics and about distinct cultures or philosophies.
In this thread, people have mentioned fuel costs. And this, imo, is where the argument truly begins.
Pop over to Cincinnati, Ohio, and visit one of those cars and coffee events on the weekend. Inform folks there that, as of today, everybody must pay more for petrol. Double, treble, and even greater. Suddenly, a lot of car enthusiasts in Cincinnati, Ohio, are not so interested in a V8 performance car.
Are household incomes the same on both sides of the Atlantic? If not, deduct 20, 30 or 40 percent from the Cincinnati pay packet. How many folks at the cars and coffee event now intend to buy any sort of performance car?
Our redefined sports car segment is now much smaller and possibly unsustainable. And this becomes a vicious cycle. As another person has noted here, when sales volume declines, unit costs rise.
TL;DR: it's about purchasing power and/or disposable income
The real reason is that there cost of manufacturing is ridiculously cheap as they have been doing production line manufacturing on a huge scale since the second world war. No one in Europe can compete on the scale they manufacture too. Ford sell an F150 every 30 seconds so just think how often one needs to be rolling off the production line.
Wammer said:
The real reason is that there cost of manufacturing is ridiculously cheap as they have been doing production line manufacturing on a huge scale since the second world war. No one in Europe can compete on the scale they manufacture too. Ford sell an F150 every 30 seconds so just think how often one needs to be rolling off the production line.
I'm sorry, but the facts say otherwise:"The largest car-making manufacturing plant in the world -- 70 million square feet large -- resides in Wolsburg, Germany, pounding out 3,800 Volkswagen vehicles per day. That comes out to about 815,000 vehicles a year"
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infras...
"Ford sold an astonishing 896,764 F-Series trucks in the US" -- which are produced at two factories. Thus an output per factory that is about half that of the VW example above.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-f-series-f150...
Wammer said:
Im sorry but your wrong about the fuel costs. Yes years ago they had incredibly cheap fuel but i was over in California recently and there fuel costs are almost the same as ours if not more in some places.
$ 28,715average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita, UK
$ 45,284
average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita, US
Source: OECD Better Life Index
128.4 p/litre
average national price for unleaded petrol, UK
0.57 p/litre
average national price for unleaded petrol, US
Sources: The AA July 2019 Report and AAA daily map, 21 August 2019.
Meanwhile, back on planet earth, today's sports car market is small and everyone with cash to spend aspires to either a hulking SUV or a standard saloon/hatch with a big engine.
Such genuine, road-going sports car market as remains is dominated by,
Other manufacturers are very welcome to try to join the party but it's a high risk game.
Such genuine, road-going sports car market as remains is dominated by,
- Porsche
- Corvette
- Mazda
Other manufacturers are very welcome to try to join the party but it's a high risk game.
rockin said:
Meanwhile, back on planet earth, today's sports car market is small and everyone with cash to spend aspires to either a hulking SUV or a standard saloon/hatch with a big engine.
Such genuine, road-going sports car market as remains is dominated by,
Other manufacturers are very welcome to try to join the party but it's a high risk game.
True. Although I have been seeing quite a few Fiat 124s lately. Around here MX5s don't seem to be all that more common. Such genuine, road-going sports car market as remains is dominated by,
- Porsche
- Corvette
- Mazda
Other manufacturers are very welcome to try to join the party but it's a high risk game.
I guess the 370Z is probably not selling much anymore, since it's quite old now and people would probably just buy an used one.
The Granturismo is quite common too but not really a sports car.
RCZ also not rare. FWD but most would call it a sports car.
Then we have TT, SLK, Z4.
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