RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote
Discussion
tommy1973s said:
The market for such wonderful cars sadly is on the way out, both in Britain and in the rest of Europe. Most so-called enthusiast young drivers in the UK drive slow diesel cars with idiotic dump valves and slammed suspensions. They drive nose to tail through town centres on weekend nights, slowly. They have as much interest in good ol' atmo V8s as I do in buying an alligator. The market for trad. sports cars in Europe is in a cultural decline. I'm in my 50s, and cars were a rite of passage for me - an ongoing fascination / affliction; and, as a rural kid, a pre-requisite if you were to have any chance of a pull. But apart from a few that's in the aforementioned slammed diesel droners, too many young people simply don't care any more, about any cars. In my direct experience of sharing offices with under-30s that do drive, many of them can't change a wheel and, shockingly to me, are unashamed about this! Dating apps, lumberjack beards (to cover up the nerdiness), electric scooters, vaping; generally being effete and useless - that's where it's at folks! And the hope that a trade deal with the US would have no wider changes re internal UK governance is misplaced. Any trade deal with the US will come bundled with a secret, mandatory ISDS mechanism which will make British lawmakers answerable to foreign companies; de facto giving foreign companies veto rights over British laws and rendering British courts redundant. See: http://ccsi.columbia.edu/files/2015/05/Investor-St...
Taking back control Jesus wept.
Taking back control Jesus wept.
unsprung said:
daltonr said:
Hi thanks for asking!
Well full disclosure, I bought the car with the main conversion already done!
These kind of conversions were fairly common in their day in the US so that's where the majority of the stuff came from. The conversion was with a low mileage LS1 and T56 6 speed gearbox sourced from Cleveland–Pic-A-Part and shipped from the US with all accessories and sensors required to drop it straight in (in theory). Hinson Super Cars supplied their install kit with new front subframe. Standard diff but a new prop shaft and separate hugely strong rear subframe with torque arm and gearbox mount came from Canada and does the job nicely of keeping this traditionally weak point in tuned RX7s in place without exploding!
End result in mild tune delivers 402bhp on a super hot day so likely a little more in ideal conditions. Exhaust is a single back box only - I have tested this at 116db! Weight distro is not bad and the whole package is now only 1340kg which I believe is only ~40kg heavier than the original Japanese twin turbo auto touring - the LS1/T56 is a pretty light package.
There is still work to do including suspension, track-friendly switchable exhaust, lowering the seats probably via minor surgery on the floor, interior, a/c reinstate, procharger centrifugal supercharger and some drivetrain strengthening depending on how much power I want to make - 500-600 seems reasonable to make decent progress on track and road I would say?.
Well, it looks like a joy to own and drive. Congratulations.Well full disclosure, I bought the car with the main conversion already done!
These kind of conversions were fairly common in their day in the US so that's where the majority of the stuff came from. The conversion was with a low mileage LS1 and T56 6 speed gearbox sourced from Cleveland–Pic-A-Part and shipped from the US with all accessories and sensors required to drop it straight in (in theory). Hinson Super Cars supplied their install kit with new front subframe. Standard diff but a new prop shaft and separate hugely strong rear subframe with torque arm and gearbox mount came from Canada and does the job nicely of keeping this traditionally weak point in tuned RX7s in place without exploding!
End result in mild tune delivers 402bhp on a super hot day so likely a little more in ideal conditions. Exhaust is a single back box only - I have tested this at 116db! Weight distro is not bad and the whole package is now only 1340kg which I believe is only ~40kg heavier than the original Japanese twin turbo auto touring - the LS1/T56 is a pretty light package.
There is still work to do including suspension, track-friendly switchable exhaust, lowering the seats probably via minor surgery on the floor, interior, a/c reinstate, procharger centrifugal supercharger and some drivetrain strengthening depending on how much power I want to make - 500-600 seems reasonable to make decent progress on track and road I would say?.
A centrifugal supercharger tends to get my vote (over the positive displacement variety) because its power delivery builds incrementally in the manner of a normally-aspirated engine. And because the packaging is more flexible in terms of under-bonnet placement. Can run a cooler intake charge as well.
On your car, however, I would go for a mild cam and heads. And avoid the added weight of a supercharger setup. Something circa 475 hp in a car like yours would be sufficient for me. If the LS1 already has a performance cam and heads, then I would see about dropping in an LS3 with hot cam and heads. But that's just me being speculative. And there is no one way to tune a car.
A 2007 C6 Corvette was 1442 kg, so you are doing well on weight in your car. As many on PH already know, an LS3 engine weighs approximately 188 kg. It's remarkably light compared to other V8s and even relative to some sixes and fours.
It's important to note that your car has the fit and finish as well as the crash engineering of a large OEM. This is no TVR or other low-volume car that was allowed to trade only with a waiver.
It's also interesting to note that this sort of conversion and all of its associated hardware were conceived in the US. So that country is not only providing value-for-money in a top-down manner (from large OEMs), but also in a bottom-up manner (via third-party conversion kits). The latter surely a DIY project for some.
I think your final paragraph is an important observation. Modifying in the US whether with crate engines like this to make the car they want, or the 1000s of people building hotrods in their garage, doing restomods with air ride packages, or tuning their 1/4 miler is huge business - both from mainstream manufacturers, tuners (who are maybe most importantly fabricators too). In the UK it's obviously a different story.
AC cars already have on their books the AC 378 GT Zagato in right hand drive and based around Corvette running gear. The car was originally engineered as the Perana Z-One in 2009 and built in South Africa by Hi-Tech Automotive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_378_GT_Zagato
Unfortunately nobody bought it.
Unfortunately nobody bought it.
- Pros - no electronic driver aids
- Cons - no electronic driver aids
In a way, and if we squint just a bit as we assess the situation, it's possible to say that we've been here, before.
As we all know... Beginning in the 1950s, and for some 20+ years after, Britain was the peerless producer of that classical sports car, the two-seat roadster.
Households on the other side of the Atlantic couldn't get enough of them. Americans were asked to pay quite a lot for these small cars, but they also got a lot in return: a sense of occasion not forthcoming from the usual cars. Rising incomes and private driveways, many with an attached two-car garage, made acquisition relatively easy.
Crucially, the British OEMs designed these cars to be built mostly in LHD for export. These were intended to transfer considerable sums from the US to the UK. This was not only the right thing for the OEM, it was also helpful to the British economy. If you look at the figures for, say, one of the MG or Triumph models, something like 95 percent of production was sent to America.
Today we have not one vast export market, but two. And car production in a Western country may not be as desirable as it once was. Nor are we often talking about the two-seat roadster.
But whatever you believe as the reason that discretionary sports cars do not sell in large volumes in Europe, you still have the opportunity to earn considerable sums and to subsidise your (much smaller) trading within Europe -- by designing to a price point and selling into the US and China.
You've done it before.
As we all know... Beginning in the 1950s, and for some 20+ years after, Britain was the peerless producer of that classical sports car, the two-seat roadster.
Households on the other side of the Atlantic couldn't get enough of them. Americans were asked to pay quite a lot for these small cars, but they also got a lot in return: a sense of occasion not forthcoming from the usual cars. Rising incomes and private driveways, many with an attached two-car garage, made acquisition relatively easy.
Crucially, the British OEMs designed these cars to be built mostly in LHD for export. These were intended to transfer considerable sums from the US to the UK. This was not only the right thing for the OEM, it was also helpful to the British economy. If you look at the figures for, say, one of the MG or Triumph models, something like 95 percent of production was sent to America.
Today we have not one vast export market, but two. And car production in a Western country may not be as desirable as it once was. Nor are we often talking about the two-seat roadster.
But whatever you believe as the reason that discretionary sports cars do not sell in large volumes in Europe, you still have the opportunity to earn considerable sums and to subsidise your (much smaller) trading within Europe -- by designing to a price point and selling into the US and China.
You've done it before.
British chassis, American engine.
History has proven that it works... time and time again.
Give the people what they want.
Shelby Cobra
Sunbeam Tiger
Gordon Keeble GK1
Jensen Interceptor
Ford GT40
TVR Chimera
TVR Wedge
Rover SD1
Land Rover Defender
Range Rover Classic
History has proven that it works... time and time again.
Give the people what they want.
Shelby Cobra
Sunbeam Tiger
Gordon Keeble GK1
Jensen Interceptor
Ford GT40
TVR Chimera
TVR Wedge
Rover SD1
Land Rover Defender
Range Rover Classic
Edited by skyrover on Friday 23 August 21:20
skyrover said:
British chassis, American engine.
History has proven that it works... time and time again.
Give the people what they want.
Shelby Cobra
Sunbeam Tiger
Gordon Keeble GK1
Jensen Interceptor
Ford GT40
TVR Chimera
TVR Wedge
Rover SD1
Land Rover Defender
Range Rover Classic
An inspiring strapline, you begin with, there.History has proven that it works... time and time again.
Give the people what they want.
Shelby Cobra
Sunbeam Tiger
Gordon Keeble GK1
Jensen Interceptor
Ford GT40
TVR Chimera
TVR Wedge
Rover SD1
Land Rover Defender
Range Rover Classic
I would only build on what you're saying by suggesting that the phrase be amended as follows:
. . . Give many people in diverse markets across the world what they want.
This sentence might sound a bit clumsy on its own. But as an indication of strategic intent, it's spot-on, I reckon.
The greatest opportunity for success lies not in merely satisfying a select few at home, but in delighting the masses, or at least those with a bit of wedge, in a number of commercially-important countries. Allow scale to reduce unit cost. And to pave the way for personalisation (and the incremental revenue that comes with that).
If the car will require a waiver so as to release it from the responsibilities of emissions control or the engineering of crash safety, we will not have done our job. Yes, these responsibilities can be costly, but we've faced tougher things before.
Interestingly, I just read that Fiat will probably discontinue the 124 Spider after this generation. There seems to be no plans for a replacement. The article had a good point when they said 2 seaters have to have either premium performance or a premium badge in order for it to sell well. The 124 has neither.
I think besides the MX5 there are not many cars which can pull the lower performance + lackluster badge sales trick. This is certainly a huge part as to why we don't have many cheap sports cars. Granted the Corvette at least covers the performance side. But for an European sports car to have the Corvette performance it wouldn't be cheap.
I think besides the MX5 there are not many cars which can pull the lower performance + lackluster badge sales trick. This is certainly a huge part as to why we don't have many cheap sports cars. Granted the Corvette at least covers the performance side. But for an European sports car to have the Corvette performance it wouldn't be cheap.
billhickman said:
I had thought of saving up for a new American car years ago, but what's cheap in USA, is a fortune
over here. If there's one thing I'd like Trump to do it's to step in and remedy the situation.
Imagine then, post-Brexit, if EU cars get 10% import duty slapped on and Boris removes the 10% import duty on Yanks....over here. If there's one thing I'd like Trump to do it's to step in and remedy the situation.
Historically, though, there seems little appetite for mid-engined cars. the original NSX did not sell in huge numbers and the Lancia Beta Monte-Carlo was a marketing failure.
The "successes" were the smaller affordable cars like the MR2 and the Fiat X1/9 - the former going through several iterations, aping Italian and German styling, the latter only getting a bigger engine. Granted, the competition back then was largely arthritic, "classic-looking" MGBs and . I imagine the MX5 probably drove them into earlier graves.
Edited by LuS1fer on Sunday 25th August 11:57
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