RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote
Discussion
unsprung said:
swisstoni said:
a Ferrari botherer
that label has a nice ring to it
I will politely disagree, however, to the argument that European OEMs are invested so much at the top end of the market that they fear cannibalising that by pursuing the middle market.
The use of brand and price segmentation, along with a commensurate managing of product features, would easily allow an OEM to have products in both the middle and the top. Different products. But no less successful. In fact, it would be a money-making opportunity... except that most EU households can't afford to acquire and operate such a V8 performance car.
I believe no niche has been left unturned by euro manufacturers.
They don’t fancy it.
The only hope would be from the East INHO. But Honda want plenty for the NSX.
swisstoni said:
But Americans manage to afford it?
In a typical year, Chevrolet sell 30,000 units of Corvette. Americans do manage to afford it. Well, maybe not those in Mississippi.https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/08/why-britain-...
unsprung said:
satans worm said:
Another reason i believe the Vette works well in the US is due to the strong patriotism the US has.
Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
It must be difficult for you to live here.Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
In Europe the day of even owning classic cars are numbered in my opinion, or at least a very expensive hobby with the advent of electric cars, i just dont see that ever being a thing here, people love the classics too much, its a way of life, working on and customizing cars etc, love it
satans worm said:
Haha, i have to say i love New York, and America, obviously some things irritate but there is no utopia in the world, every place has plus and minuses, the US attitude to cars and the landscape thats so open to road trips is a massive plus.
In Europe the day of even owning classic cars are numbered in my opinion, or at least a very expensive hobby with the advent of electric cars, i just dont see that ever being a thing here, people love the classics too much, its a way of life, working on and customizing cars etc, love it
In my experience, when somebody from the EU says... In Europe the day of even owning classic cars are numbered in my opinion, or at least a very expensive hobby with the advent of electric cars, i just dont see that ever being a thing here, people love the classics too much, its a way of life, working on and customizing cars etc, love it
"We make choices of self denial because we care more than you do about people and the environment"
...what they're actually trying to cover up is that they can't afford it. In their experience, it's something rather only for the rich.
swisstoni said:
There is nothing in it for European manufacturers to suddeny knock out a bargain basement barnstormer. Obviously they could at the drop of a hat.
But they are heavily involved in high end stuff so this would be kicking themselves.
GM however don’t seem to have any luxo-performance brands on the books at the moment. So a Ferrari botherer is all good as far as they are concerned.
$100,000 and 0-60mph in 3.7 sec and 200mph sound performance and luxury to me But they are heavily involved in high end stuff so this would be kicking themselves.
GM however don’t seem to have any luxo-performance brands on the books at the moment. So a Ferrari botherer is all good as far as they are concerned.
https://www.cadillac.com/v-series/cts-v-sedan
300bhp/ton said:
swisstoni said:
There is nothing in it for European manufacturers to suddeny knock out a bargain basement barnstormer. Obviously they could at the drop of a hat.
But they are heavily involved in high end stuff so this would be kicking themselves.
GM however don’t seem to have any luxo-performance brands on the books at the moment. So a Ferrari botherer is all good as far as they are concerned.
$100,000 and 0-60mph in 3.7 sec and 200mph sound performance and luxury to me But they are heavily involved in high end stuff so this would be kicking themselves.
GM however don’t seem to have any luxo-performance brands on the books at the moment. So a Ferrari botherer is all good as far as they are concerned.
https://www.cadillac.com/v-series/cts-v-sedan
Thankyou4calling said:
The market wants SUVs not two seater sports cars.
I think it wants both. SUVs don't take that many sales away from mid engine sports car, they take them away from saloons, estates, hatches. Besides it's also possible to have both a SUV for family use and a sports car for fun and track days.
swisstoni said:
Oh yes Cadillac. That nippy sports brand.
They were absolute pants for so many years, weren't they.Management made the right decision, imo, to hire Johan de Nysschen -- who can be credited with significant success at turning the brand around. Pity he's no longer there.
ETA: the V series Cadillacs are actually very good performance cars; and now the V is being expanded to allow not just the "mental" level of performance of recent years, but also something more lightly fettled (and more affordable).
Edited by unsprung on Monday 19th August 15:57
swisstoni said:
Oh yes Cadillac. That nippy sports brand.
They might not be the best known in the UK. But yes.They have been making truly rapid and world beating fast saloons for nearly 20 years. Ranging from 450-640hp.
Aside from the saloons they also built this. Sadly now out of production. Supercharged 4.6 Northstar V8 and using Corvette underpinnings.
Love 'vettes - but new price, LHD and their width would not work for me on UK roads. What we need is all the V8 drama, in a smaller and fantastic coupe package which is at UK sportscar proportions, sounds like thunder, revs to 7000rpm, drives on the throttle and is generally a good-time car for a fraction of the price. This and a vision for a "UK-'vette" was exactly what I had in mind with mine...
daltonr said:
Love 'vettes - but new price, LHD and their width would not work for me on UK roads. What we need is all the V8 drama, in a smaller and fantastic coupe package which is at UK sportscar proportions, sounds like thunder, revs to 7000rpm, drives on the throttle and is generally a good-time car for a fraction of the price. This and a vision for a "UK-'vette" was exactly what I had in mind with mine...
I don’t know about the C8 Vette. But past ones really aren’t any wider than many Euro/Jap cars and should be usable on most UK roads. If it really is too wide, the chances are the road isn’t the most suitable for spirited driving of the performance level off a Corvette. LHD also shouldn’t be a hindrance for spirited driving either. I’m certainly not knocking the idea of more compact cars though. I used to run a smart Roadster. But still used my Camaro z28 on the same roads.
Some B road action in a Camaro.
https://youtu.be/_S9UJVasWyw
Nice car btw
I had a C6 Corvette and although LHD was a pain at times I loved it......on my frequent trips to an elderly aunt in North Wales from London it returned 29 MPG.......and it didn't hang about
If you can be bothered look up the length/width and compare to a 2012 911......you'll be surprised
If you can be bothered look up the length/width and compare to a 2012 911......you'll be surprised
daltonr said:
Love 'vettes - but new price, LHD and their width would not work for me on UK roads. What we need is all the V8 drama, in a smaller and fantastic coupe package which is at UK sportscar proportions, sounds like thunder, revs to 7000rpm, drives on the throttle and is generally a good-time car for a fraction of the price. This and a vision for a "UK-'vette" was exactly what I had in mind with mine...
Outstanding. Resourceful !!Your written introduction reads like an ideal definition for a performance car. Numerous elements well considered. Hopefully you won't mind too much if there are a couple of questions (I can't be the only one who's curious
)-- Did the lump more or less just drop in? Or was there significant reconstruction of the firewall and/or tunnel?
-- Any enhancements / substitutions regarding the transmission and the rear end?
mike-v2tmf said:
I had a C6 Corvette and although LHD was a pain at times I loved it......on my frequent trips to an elderly aunt in North Wales from London it returned 29 MPG.......and it didn't hang about
If you can be bothered look up the length/width and compare to a 2012 911......you'll be surprised
If you can be bothered look up the length/width and compare to a 2012 911......you'll be surprised
2007 Porsche Carrera S
Length 4460 mm
Width 1808 mm
Height 1311 mm
2007 C6 Corvette
Length 4435 mm
Width 1844 mm
Height 1245 mm
note: US spec cars; width is body only (no mirrors)
Plate spinner said:
Back in the day this niche was filled perfectly by TVR in the Griff / Chim era - big V8 in a good looking but slightly rough around the edges package at an affordable price.
I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
This. I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
CDP said:
Plate spinner said:
Back in the day this niche was filled perfectly by TVR in the Griff / Chim era - big V8 in a good looking but slightly rough around the edges package at an affordable price.
I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
This. I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
And tbh it didn’t even need to have been Ford or GM. The Jag AJV8 would probably have worked pretty well in a modernised Chimera.
300bhp/ton said:
CDP said:
Plate spinner said:
Back in the day this niche was filled perfectly by TVR in the Griff / Chim era - big V8 in a good looking but slightly rough around the edges package at an affordable price.
I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
This. I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
For bangs per buck TVR were pretty untouchable in their glory days of Rover V8 and Ford V6.
I don't think most enthusiasts were too worried about using bought in engines; I suspect for many it was reassuring.
Rather importantly it could have been emissions compliant out of the box.
A small block Chevy would have been perfect - compact, powerful, great noise, reliable and cheap. Not to mention the amount of tuning knowledge and parts available.
I can't help thinking TVR would still be here if they'd stuck to their roots.
Maybe there's an opening here for Ginetta?
And tbh it didn’t even need to have been Ford or GM. The Jag AJV8 would probably have worked pretty well in a modernised Chimera.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff