Do 4 lane motorways work?

[anonymous-user]

MrGTI6 said:

Every single day on the M25!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRt6NHa9-lY

Edited by MrGTI6 on Monday 19th August 20:24

I use 4 lane stretches of motorways regularly, and that video is entirely typical of what I do. I'll nip out of L1 into the other lanes to overtake the odd thing, then come back over and resume barreling up the inside of all the fools. Long may it last.

[Pupbelly]

RobM77 said:

I've just done a quick search, and in terms of deaths per 100,000; the UK is second in Europe, just behind Sweden; and third in the world, just behind Sweden and Micronesia. I guess it depends how you measure safe though - are deaths a good way to measure it? Measuring deaths or injuries includes the safety of cars in the figures, and obviously wealthy countries like Sweden and the UK (before Brexit anyway ) will have more modern cars, which have vastly better safety records than the old bangers they drive in less wealthy countries. So I wonder how the figures look when we just examine the probability of having an accident?

A very good point. Looking at death rates is pointless, as has been said, the use of seatbelts in the UK and more modern cars will of course reduce deaths which is where these statistics come from. The case in point is the number of mindless accidents due to clowns not knowing the basic rules of the road and them or innocent drivers becoming caught up in their incompetence.

The number of accidents on the M20, M25, M2 A249, A20 etc. here in the South East is staggering all due to idiots and the knock on effect of the Plod shutting down a road for hours on end rather than just clearing the mess and reopening the road means many painful delayed journeys.

[Baldchap]

ahenners said:

Cloudy147 said:

We could have 10 lane motorways, but as long as lorries can use all but the outside lane,we'll still have congestion. 9 lanes of the lorry snail race, 1 lane for everyone else.

It's rare I find traffic backing up because of lorries overtaking lorries. My commute of the M6 covers a 4 lane stretch and it's usually the lane 2 hoggers now hogging lane 3 instead that is the problem.

This. The moment someone hogs the penultimate lane, the road is essentially a single carriageway.

[RobM77]

Pupbelly said:

RobM77 said:

I've just done a quick search, and in terms of deaths per 100,000; the UK is second in Europe, just behind Sweden; and third in the world, just behind Sweden and Micronesia. I guess it depends how you measure safe though - are deaths a good way to measure it? Measuring deaths or injuries includes the safety of cars in the figures, and obviously wealthy countries like Sweden and the UK (before Brexit anyway ) will have more modern cars, which have vastly better safety records than the old bangers they drive in less wealthy countries. So I wonder how the figures look when we just examine the probability of having an accident?

A very good point. Looking at death rates is pointless, as has been said, the use of seatbelts in the UK and more modern cars will of course reduce deaths which is where these statistics come from. The case in point is the number of mindless accidents due to clowns not knowing the basic rules of the road and them or innocent drivers becoming caught up in their incompetence.

The number of accidents on the M20, M25, M2 A249, A20 etc. here in the South East is staggering all due to idiots and the knock on effect of the Plod shutting down a road for hours on end rather than just clearing the mess and reopening the road means many painful delayed journeys.

It's the same statistical blunder as the so called "reliability" indices and results tables (JD Power for example), which aren't just capturing pure reliability, they also capture repair costs, and some even include customer satisfaction.

[Tom_Spotley_When]

RobM77 said:

Anecdotally at least, from my experiences driving around Europe I find I get stuck in more queues due to accidents in the UK than anywhere else, and general standards of driving are the worst, certainly the most aggressive anyway. In mainland Europe you can actually overtake people without being flashed and hooted. I've noticed people let me out less in traffic, which is interesting (especially in Belgium), but generally things seem to flow better.

A couple of years ago my wife and I drove 2200 miles through Belgium, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and France and the only queues we had now and then were due to heavy rush hour traffic if we happened to be in or near a big city during rush hour. When we got back to the UK we only had 2.5 hours from Folkestone to home and we got stuck in two massive queues caused by enormous accidents and one small one; we also picked up one road rage plonker in an SUV who was angry about something or other, probably just the fact I was in a BMW (Brits see them as flashy, whereas everyone else just sees them as a normal car). I've driven in Europe on business, on holidays, and on brief trips to see family, and this has consistently been my experience of the UK vs the mainland over 25 years.

I did 2500 miles from San Sebastian to the Med, then back home through Eastern France for my honeymoon this summer. Most days, I set the cruise to 85 and adopted the continental method of driving. Flash/indicate to overtake, lane discipline and an awareness if not strict following of speed limits. If a journey was 300 miles away, it took 3.5 hours to get there.

Off the Chunnel into a 50 mph average speed check, then a queue on the M25, then a queue on the M40. Then an angry middle aged man in a fiesta in the outside lane of the M40 who was patrolling the road at 65 mph and not letting anyone get past him, for about 10 miles. Literally straddling middle and outside lanes at times, or pulling into the middle lane to stop undertaking. When I indicated that I wanted to pass, he brake tested me, then pulled over, then gave a load of abuse.

The journey home to Manchester took nearly 7 hours. I reckon most of that was people who are either incompetent or just awful drivers who can't drive in the right lane for the speed they're doing. You can have all the lanes and managed motorways you want, but if slower drivers are unable to drive in lane 1 or 2 it makes jack all difference.

[reglard]

Apparently, if you go into the left-hand lane you will get rabies or something, I have given up moving out on my early hour's jaunts around the M25 I just undertake these days occasionally giving a short blast on the horn to see if the driver is actually awake next to me.

[DoubleD]

RobM77 said:

Rich Boy Spanner said:

RobM77 said:

Pupbelly said:

DoubleD said:

Pupbelly said:

DoubleD said:

So why are we always told that we have the safest roads in the world? Is it not true?

Because the media is always right, yes?

So the figures that they publish are wrong?

The figures they quote will be the ones they want visible to the masses.

I've just done a quick search, and in terms of deaths per 100,000; the UK is second in Europe, just behind Sweden; and third in the world, just behind Sweden and Micronesia. I guess it depends how you measure safe though - are deaths a good way to measure it? Measuring deaths or injuries includes the safety of cars in the figures, and obviously wealthy countries like Sweden and the UK (before Brexit anyway ) will have more modern cars, which have vastly better safety records than the old bangers they drive in less wealthy countries. So I wonder how the figures look when we just examine the probability of having an accident?

I read some years ago that the UK's relatively low rate of deaths was due to higher than average use of seat belts and lower drink driving rates. Other the crazy Belgians I don't find UK drivers in any way better than anyone else, and almost every M/Way journey is delayed because of some bizarre crash, on a road where everyone is going in the same direction between white lines.

Anecdotally at least, from my experiences driving around Europe I find I get stuck in more queues due to accidents in the UK than anywhere else, and general standards of driving are the worst, certainly the most aggressive anyway. In mainland Europe you can actually overtake people without being flashed and hooted. I've noticed people let me out less in traffic, which is interesting (especially in Belgium), but generally things seem to flow better.

A couple of years ago my wife and I drove 2200 miles through Belgium, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and France and the only queues we had now and then were due to heavy rush hour traffic if we happened to be in or near a big city during rush hour. When we got back to the UK we only had 2.5 hours from Folkestone to home and we got stuck in two massive queues caused by enormous accidents and one small one; we also picked up one road rage plonker in an SUV who was angry about something or other, probably just the fact I was in a BMW (Brits see them as flashy, whereas everyone else just sees them as a normal car). I've driven in Europe on business, on holidays, and on brief trips to see family, and this has consistently been my experience of the UK vs the mainland over 25 years.

So we annoy each other and have more small accidents, but less people die, so we are obviously doing something well.

[Mr Tidy]

fiju said:

Allowing hgv's to do 70 would help things a lot. It should be illegal to do less than 65 on a motorway.

I don't think so - I wouldn't want to get rear-ended by an HGV doing 70 while the driver was making a call/texting/watching TV or downloading who knows what!

Unless HGVs are restricted to the 2 inside lanes, and car drivers get a 90 mph limit.

Overtaking either side like in the US has to be the best idea, based on my experience of the M3/M25/M4/M42 & A3 over the last decade or so!

[fiju]

Mr Tidy said:

I don't think so - I wouldn't want to get rear-ended by an HGV doing 70 while the driver was making a call/texting/watching TV or downloading who knows what!

Unless HGVs are restricted to the 2 inside lanes, and car drivers get a 90 mph limit.

Overtaking either side like in the US has to be the best idea, based on my experience of the M3/M25/M4/M42 & A3 over the last decade or so!

Oh so you're fine with being rear ended by a hgv doing 60?
I don't think it matters, you're going to be a stain on the tarmac regardless.

Am I the only person that sees it as fair game to overtake on either side these days?

[civicduty]

The extra lane on the M42 smart motorway is pretty pointless if you are driving through rather than getting off at a junction on the controlled stretch, because you move to lane 1, only for that lane to suddenly turn into ‘This Lane only for Junction 4’ Lane.

So you then you have to force your way back into lane 2, (as leaving a gap seems to be a foreign concept). Then after the junction move back into lane 1 for 1/2 a mile or whatever, where it becomes a ‘Junction blah only lane’ again.

To avoid stress i just don’t bother with it, and going in my journey back from Nottingham to Swindon at the weekend not many other people do either!

[Mr Tidy]

fiju said:

Oh so you're fine with being rear ended by a hgv doing 60?
I don't think it matters, you're going to be a stain on the tarmac regardless.

Am I the only person that sees it as fair game to overtake on either side these days?

Rear-ended by an HGV at 60 should be less painful than an HGV doing 70 though.

But that wouldn't happen if I was allowed to do 90 in the lanes HGVs shouldn't be in would it?

Let's be realistic, any modern car could surely stop quicker from 100 than an HGV could stop from 70!

[fiju]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether you get hit at 60 or 70. You're fked either way. So why not just let them do 70...

[Hol]

Its been may experience that dawdlers prefer the middle lane of a three-lane motorway and the third lane on the four-lane equivalent.

Whenever you question someone who admits to doing it, they genuinely seem to think everyone should just pick one lane and stay there (just not the one they prefer).


I was actually hoping the new anti MLM laws would come with some form of mandatory 'lane-awareness' course. Sadly, that isn't the case.

[DoubleD]

fiju said:

Am I the only person that sees it as fair game to overtake on either side these days?

No, quite a few people do that.

[Baldchap]

Mr Tidy said:

Let's be realistic, any modern car could surely stop quicker from 100 than an HGV could stop from 70!

Modern trucks stop astonishingly quickly.

Check this out for instance:
https://youtu.be/vI9EIjUx20I

[Rich Boy Spanner]

Seems to work in the US. They don't limit truck speed. Takes a few miles each trip to get your head round seeing them looming up in your mirror when you have 85MPH in your speedo.

[otolith]

fiju said:

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether you get hit at 60 or 70. You're fked either way. So why not just let them do 70...

Would alter how many cars it squishes when it runs into the back of a queue though.

[JeremyBearimy]

fiju said:

Am I the only person that sees it as fair game to overtake on either side these days?

There is a certain kind of f**ck wit who storms up the inside (any inside lane) when others are trying to overtake on the right, they appear in your mirror at the last second as your trying to tuck back in after an overtake. They generally do the hard accelerate, hard brake and hard weave. They are an absolute liability on the motorway, especially if your in a van with slightly less visibility.

Don’t be that cock, because your going to wipe out someone.

[theplayingmantis]

civicduty said:

The extra lane on the M42 smart motorway is pretty pointless if you are driving through rather than getting off at a junction on the controlled stretch, because you move to lane 1, only for that lane to suddenly turn into ‘This Lane only for Junction 4’ Lane.

So you then you have to force your way back into lane 2, (as leaving a gap seems to be a foreign concept). Then after the junction move back into lane 1 for 1/2 a mile or whatever, where it becomes a ‘Junction blah only lane’ again.

To avoid stress i just don’t bother with it, and going in my journey back from Nottingham to Swindon at the weekend not many other people do either!

and therein lies the problem. Laziness, thats no justification for being a middle lane hog. if it really stresses you out having to change lanes every half mile perhaps you shouldnt be on the MW in the first place?