RE: Ferrari F8 Tributo | Driven

[isaldiri]

MrwReckless said:

Who here would rather see the return of a smaller displacement, high revving V12 manual gearbox with approximately 400bhp? With the right gearing it will be plenty fast enough and still be enjoyable responsibly on the road. I'd rather the manufacturers offer the rich to pay a premium for a genuine exotic true light weight chassis as an option rather than just playing the horsepower game.

Regards

There simply are not enough buyers to make it worthwhile for a manufacturer to make it commercially worthwhile making such a car. Top trumps/more power/faster laptimes are what gets people buying cars in numbers for that sector of the market not lighter weight and greater driver involvement. Well short of charging a stratospheric amount like the Gordon Murray car...

The Surveyor said:

There are still plenty of cars in the lightweight sportscar bracket from Porsche, Alpine, Lotus, and Toyota to name a few.

Porsche don't produce a lightweight sportscar...

[The Surveyor]

isaldiri said:

Porsche don't produce a lightweight sportscar...

'Lightweight' is fairly subjective, but I would put the new GT4 in the bracket of the type of car being suggested.

[Mr Whippy]

Can you even drive it on the road with everything “off”?

I’m not trusting that ‘no lag’ statement.

Anyone remember all the press and VW saying the 1.8T 20v was as good as ‘lag free’ at the time?


Give me a 360CS Spider in TDF thanks.
Or maybe a 458.

These latest cars are really gash... quite literally. Let’s just cut more lines/vents into the 458.

[isaldiri]

The Surveyor said:

'Lightweight' is fairly subjective, but I would put the new GT4 in the bracket of the type of car being suggested.

The Alpine or Lotus Exige at 1100kg is lightweight... the gt4 at over 1400kg is not imo.....

[MrwReckless]

isaldiri said:

MrwReckless said:

Who here would rather see the return of a smaller displacement, high revving V12 manual gearbox with approximately 400bhp? With the right gearing it will be plenty fast enough and still be enjoyable responsibly on the road. I'd rather the manufacturers offer the rich to pay a premium for a genuine exotic true light weight chassis as an option rather than just playing the horsepower game.

Regards

There simply are not enough buyers to make it worthwhile for a manufacturer to make it commercially worthwhile making such a car. Top trumps/more power/faster laptimes are what gets people buying cars in numbers for that sector of the market not lighter weight and greater driver involvement. Well short of charging a stratospheric amount like the Gordon Murray car...

The Surveyor said:

There are still plenty of cars in the lightweight sportscar bracket from Porsche, Alpine, Lotus, and Toyota to name a few.

Porsche don't produce a lightweight sportscar...

I get it's a complete utopia, but back to the Japanese gentlemans agreement, it should be made compulsory/mandatory with a max power of approx 400 bhp.. People wouldn't have a choice in power and manufacturers would have to look elsewhere for performance, i.e. lightweight.

As I said, complete Utopia. Taking nothing away from Ferrari and it's engineering on display here, but it leaves me cold as another unobtainium car reserved for the very wealthy. The body lines I get are functional for aero but it's no bedroom wall poster image IMO so that leaves it existing just as a clinical item to one up your wealthy competitor/neighbour etc in price and power, not in beauty and elegance.

Modern motoring has lost it's way somewhat, it seems to focus on "more" rather than "how". Honorable mentions to the MX-5..

Regards

[GranCab]

If you don't like it don't buy it.

There are plenty of other choices out there, new and used, for those who want manual gearboxes, light weight, more this and less that ...

We live in a free country and, at present, there are relatively few restrictions on new cars.

Anyone proposing a horsepower limit on new cars must live in Islington, have a beard, wear sandals and ride a pushbike ...

Each to their own eh ?

[av185]

The Surveyor said:

'Lightweight' is fairly subjective, but I would put the new GT4 in the bracket of the type of car being suggested.

The 718 GT4 is actually heavier than the old 981 GT4 with consequential minimal performance differences despite its power hike.

Mostly down to the GPFs apparently.

Still a relatively light car compared to others in this category though.

[Vee12V]

isaldiri said:

The Surveyor said:

'Lightweight' is fairly subjective, but I would put the new GT4 in the bracket of the type of car being suggested.

The Alpine or Lotus Exige at 1100kg is lightweight... the gt4 at over 1400kg is not imo.....

This.

OT: I'm afraid this car will be a tough sell, especially considering that it'll probably depreciate quite heavily. I also wouldn't want to be a current 488 owner now that this has appeared on the scene.

[blueSL]

FWIW, I have a 488 GTB and love it. Sure, the market marks it down but this preoccupation with engine noise is beyond me. I have a couple of Porsche GT3s which noisily rev to 9000 rpm and I would take the 488 in a heartbeat. So is the F8 Tributo for me? No, because I am keeping the 488 but the expected F8 Spider most certainly is to add to my garage. Can't wait!

[MJK 24]

Cacatous said:

As capable as these machines are, how about a 400hp lightweight model? Even that would stretch the limits of what's legal on the road but you'd be able to enjoy more of its engine and capabilities.

Are these cars getting too powerful to enjoy?

Couldn’t agree more. I drove a 488 GTB last week. A good car for many reasons. It rode well and seemed solidly out together. Great seats and steering.

My main gripe was the performance. It’s just too fast to use on the road. I think it would fast become frustrating because of that.

[av185]

blueSL said:

FWIW, I have a 488 GTB and love it. Sure, the market marks it down but this preoccupation with engine noise is beyond me. I have a couple of Porsche GT3s which noisily rev to 9000 rpm and I would take the 488 in a heartbeat.

The gen 2 GT3 Cup car engine is a masterpiece and the variable induction roar across the rev range up to 9k is totally addictive. With no fake sound either. This car is the sweet spot imo of latter day Porsche GTs. Especially in 'manuel' format.

This is in contrast to the 488 which has no drama whatsoever in the engine noise department and substantially lags behind the GT3 considerably.

The 488 is fast and a good car overall but it's engine sounds fake, is just a noise and the car is generally uninvolving and detached.

I suppose it broadly comes down to how raw interesting and involving you want a car to be.

[Pro Bono]

Cacatous said:

As capable as these machines are, how about a 400hp lightweight model? Even that would stretch the limits of what's legal on the road but you'd be able to enjoy more of its engine and capabilities.

Are these cars getting too powerful to enjoy?

I don't think it's about enjoyment any more. This type of car has capabilities that are far beyond 99.9% of the people who will buy them, and although I've no doubt many buyers will be enthusiasts and competent drivers there will be many more who are just buying it as a status symbol to impress their equally wealthy mates.

But a bigger problem is that a car like this finally does everything a supercar is supposed to do to perfection. It's the car that supercar manufacturers have been striving to produce ever since cars were invented. And others such as McLaren are very close.

But although that sounds like a cause for celebration it really isn't. The problem is where do we go from here? Once you've reached perfection all you can really do is tinker round the edges.

At a much lower lever the same situation exists with PC's and smartphones. When they first became available every new model was eagerly awaited, and reviews were pored over that revealed genuinely important advances, with massively improved chip speeds that made a real difference, or phone cameras that made it unnecessary to carry a separate digital camera.

But I've now had my PC for nearly 5 years, and it does everything I want as fast as I want. They're now about as interesting as washing machines, and I can't recall reading a review for many years. Likewise I used to be excited by what a new iPhone would do, but the improvements over the past couple of years have been marginal, and I suspect the latest ones to be revealed on Tuesday will be equally meh.

Cars have gone exactly the same way, even at the top end like this Ferrari. Virtually every new car does what it's meant to do extremely well, and the differences between, for example, Audis, Mercs and BMW's are increasingly marginal. You could get into any of them and quite happily drive it for years.

But it was the imperfections that made cars interesting, and gave them individual character, which explains the attraction of classic cars. You felt that what you got out of the car was proportionate to what you put into it, and this just isn't the case with modern cars.

The situation can only get worse. Increased regulation has already had a seriously adverse effect on this type of car, for example making them use turbochargers which, though efficient, would probably not have been the designers' first choice. In turn they've had to turn to embarrassing tricks to synthesize an attractive engine sound, which is the equivalent of automotive fake tan, and totally at odds with the supposed `purity' of a car like this.

And hybrid / electric cars just have no appeal to me as an ageing petrolhead at all. I just can't imagine getting emotionally stirred by any electric vehicle, no matter how good they may be from a purely engineering point of view.

So what's the future for motoring generally as something to be enjoyed for its own sake? As cars become more homogenised and generally safer / duller will the concept of a motoring enthusiast in 15 years time be the equivalent of a dishwasher enthusiast now?

[Jex]

MrwReckless said:

I get it's a complete utopia, but back to the Japanese gentlemans agreement, it should be made compulsory/mandatory with a max power of approx 400 bhp.. People wouldn't have a choice in power and manufacturers would have to look elsewhere for performance, i.e. lightweight.


Regards

I like this idea. 400 bhp is plenty enough for the road in my opinion. By looking elsewhere for performance it would also improve efficiency.

[av185]

Pro Bono said:

But it was the imperfections that made cars interesting, and gave them individual character, which explains the attraction of classic cars. You felt that what you got out of the car was proportionate to what you put into it, and this just isn't the case with modern cars.

Trouble is there is a fine line between imperfections/idiosyncracies/character and that older car which we tend to view through rose tinted spectacles being an unreliable and totally unsuitable pain in the arse.

[Rawwr]

av185 said:

Trouble is there is a fine line between imperfections/idiosyncracies/character and that older car which we tend to view through rose tinted spectacles being an unreliable and totally unsuitable pain in the arse.

Rose-tinted or not, I think most people would be hard-pushed to say this is less exciting than an F8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgD0wJGcR0

[RobM77]

av185 said:

Trouble is there is a fine line between imperfections/idiosyncracies/character and that older car which we tend to view through rose tinted spectacles being an unreliable and totally unsuitable pain in the arse.

I absolutely agree with this, but we must remember a car's intended use and audience. For my daily driver, although I want a car that handles and drives well, it must start every morning and get me to work, have no annoying rattles, no electrical gremlins etc. For my weekend or track car I am far more willing to accept idiosyncrasies if they come along with character. This is why people own classics like the Elan or MGB instead of an objectively better MX5 (I'm one of those people!).

[av185]

Rawwr said:

av185 said:

Trouble is there is a fine line between imperfections/idiosyncracies/character and that older car which we tend to view through rose tinted spectacles being an unreliable and totally unsuitable pain in the arse.

Rose-tinted or not, I think most people would be hard-pushed to say this is less exciting than an F8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgD0wJGcR0

Great clip great sound. Thanks for posting.

[WCZ]

Jex said:

I like this idea. 400 bhp is plenty enough for the road in my opinion. By looking elsewhere for performance it would also improve efficiency.

depends on the weight, 400hp in a hummer doesn't feel that fast

I think 300hp/ton is the sweet spot

[Rawwr]

WCZ said:

I think 300hp/ton is the sweet spot

First time anyone's said that on here

[Ho Lee Kau]

GranCab said:

Ho Lee Kau said:

Dan, you should compare it to the car you bought, the Alpine.

I am sure Ferrari is great, but that is 200k and for only a select few (most of whom will be trust fund kids one way or the other, old money).

What would be interesting is to read about how it compares to driver cars that people not born with the silver spoon in their mouths can buy, like Alpine.

(I am not jealous, it anyone thinks of writing a stupid retort like that.)

Maybe not jealous but you can be accused of lazy stereotyping of certain car owners.

Having just come back from Universo Ferrari at Fiorano, I had the pleasure of meeting several fairly typical Ferrari owners:

Five self-made businessmen from rough parts of three Midlands cities, age range 34 - 63.

One self-made businessman from the roughest part of Liverpool age 50s.

One surgeon from Greater London age 40s.

One self-made property owner from West London whose mother grew up in a mud hut in India, age late 20s.

And one self-made businessman from Lincolnshire in his 70s.

No silver spoons or Trust Funds .....

Thank you for a mature answer, unlike the two other idiots above.

I do not deny there are self-made men/women. Good for them! I know some.

I am convinced though that most people that can afford these kind of cars had some kind of silver spoon: "trust money", family connections one way or the other (=getting in on a good position with great pay and moving on up the ladder with support), family business (= starting to work for family business at a high position and moving on up the ladder with support / getting into other businesses with support, for example on boards of directors). I know many more like that.

First million is the hardest...unless you get a tailwind.