RE: Porsche Taycan | Official reveal!

[swisstoni]

kmpowell said:

The mind boggles, it really does. Sure, the argument will be "If you're spending £140k on a car, then a few k more won't matter", but that's not really the point IMO.

I think luxury manufacturers have thought all about this.
Once you have got your brain past spending an amount like £140k, all these expensive extras almost seem silly NOT to spec.
How can a £140k car not have folding mirrors!
Etc, etc.

It’s this thinking that means I have 22 way seats (15 ways wasn’t enough apparently?) and the most expensive torch accessory on earth.

[Gandahar]

For people still complaining that is has a turbo badge on it but has no turbo -->



The one on the left is called the Mini, apparently.

[BFleming]

cidered77 said:

But the point i was making really was - you must acknowledge that puts you in a tiny minority of drivers? But the amount of range bashing for EV far outstrips the number of people actually affected. You are - so - don't buy one - 99% of drivers aren't.

I've done three decent driving trips in the last 12 months - Ireland, Spain & Germany/Belgium (last weekend), and all were done whilst maximising my time at the wheel - just getting the journey done. I lived in Germany for years, and used to do regular trips to the UK and Ireland, and I had the same mentality then - drive for as long as you can & get the journey done in the quickest time possible.
Nowadays, for the rest of my car needs, an EV would suit perfectly. But for those longer trips, they wouldn't.
I've concluded that the next car bought in the family will be a plug-in hybrid, mostly as I can actually plug it in at home, and the daily mileage we do (my wife commutes 24 miles round trip, I work from home). But when we do longer trips, it'll be 5 mins at the pumps every few hundred miles.

[Guffy]

jamoor said:

OMG has anyone seen the taycan car configurator?

It's a total clusterfk. How on earth is anyone meant to navigate through that?

That's odd, i've been playing with the configurator this morning and find very user friendly and intuitive.

I was dead keen on getting a deposit down a few months ago, but It's a bit too costly for my liking, more the unknown depreciation that's a concern.

As for the 'turbo' debate, the de-badged option sorts that out.

Apart from the cost, i like it and i would get some satisfaction running it as a company car

[jamoor]

BFleming said:

cidered77 said:

But the point i was making really was - you must acknowledge that puts you in a tiny minority of drivers? But the amount of range bashing for EV far outstrips the number of people actually affected. You are - so - don't buy one - 99% of drivers aren't.

I've done three decent driving trips in the last 12 months - Ireland, Spain & Germany/Belgium (last weekend), and all were done whilst maximising my time at the wheel - just getting the journey done. I lived in Germany for years, and used to do regular trips to the UK and Ireland, and I had the same mentality then - drive for as long as you can & get the journey done in the quickest time possible.
Nowadays, for the rest of my car needs, an EV would suit perfectly. But for those longer trips, they wouldn't.
I've concluded that the next car bought in the family will be a plug-in hybrid, mostly as I can actually plug it in at home, and the daily mileage we do (my wife commutes 24 miles round trip, I work from home). But when we do longer trips, it'll be 5 mins at the pumps every few hundred miles.

I don't know for a fact but I'm pretty sure the market for people doing journeys like yours is pretty small.

[jamoor]

BFleming said:

This. I like driving on my own, and this summer I did the 1370 miles from home to Spain, picking the family up at Madrid airport before cracking on for the last 4 hours. I did the Channel Tunnel to Bayonne in one hit. Well rested the night beforehand, no comfort breaks, no coffee, no leg stretching, just did it, sitting at the speed limit everywhere, on about 3/4 tank of fuel. The next day I did the same thing, Bayonne to Madrid & on, no stops. Just cracked on & got it done. Doing that same journey & having to stop every 250 miles for a recharge, assuming the charge points are free, and then having to sit at the same prescribed speed as everyone else would be tortuous.
Electric cars will undoubtedly give the same range as the ICEs they will one day replace, but it's not there yet. The Taycan, amazing as I think it is, is an expensive folly.

You can probably save £200 on the journey in fuel alone using an electric car.

[Lowtimer]

BFleming said:

I've done three decent driving trips in the last 12 months - Ireland, Spain & Germany/Belgium (last weekend), and all were done whilst maximising my time at the wheel - just getting the journey done. I lived in Germany for years, and used to do regular trips to the UK and Ireland, and I had the same mentality then - drive for as long as you can & get the journey done in the quickest time possible.
Nowadays, for the rest of my car needs, an EV would suit perfectly. But for those longer trips, they wouldn't.
I've concluded that the next car bought in the family will be a plug-in hybrid, mostly as I can actually plug it in at home, and the daily mileage we do (my wife commutes 24 miles round trip, I work from home). But when we do longer trips, it'll be 5 mins at the pumps every few hundred miles.

For the one in a thousand sports saloon drivers who does this sort of thing regularly, yes, pure electric cars are not likely be relevant yet as an only car. For all those who have multiple cars or rarely drive more than 200 miles in a day, then it's a non-issue now.

And I'm sure most prospective Taycan owners have other cars to choose from on any given day.

Not having a sneer - in my own use of my daily driver, it's either a 20 mile round trip to the supermarket, or a 500 mile round trip to some part of family, so I don't yet feel full electric is for me as a replacement for that car, given that those long round trips are a couple of times a month, and a very high proportion of my total mileage - whereas a hybrid would definitely work.

But yours, and my patterns of usage, are very rare in the general population.

If I were still doing the regular 110 mile round trip daily commute to the office that I did for five years I would have a full electric car like a shot for that, and other general hacking around, and just use something else when I'm legging it between North Yorkshire and Dundee or Cornwall or wherever.

Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 6th September 13:34

[E65Ross]

Gandahar said:

For people still complaining that is has a turbo badge on it but has no turbo -->



The one on the left is called the Mini, apparently.

It is quite ironic. Although MINI is the brand name, not a description of the car.

[nunpuncher]

The EV market needs an (original) mini moment. A car that every new driver can afford, a car that converts the next generation to only ever knowing what an electric vehicle is like to drive. The benefits of EV ownership are that they cost little to run and you get a lovely smug feeling from knowing you're saving the planet (apart from all that inconvenient mining).

I get the halo product approach but I just don't see the masses who appreciate the benefits of an EV ever aspiring to or wanting a £100k+ car even they had the funds. Tesla have disrupted the wrong sector.

[JonnyVTEC]

Wrong sector or not. It’s presently the only sector you can carry on making similar profit margins to combustion cars at the moment.

[Dave Hedgehog]

nunpuncher said:

The EV market needs an (original) mini moment. A car that every new driver can afford, a car that converts the next generation to only ever knowing what an electric vehicle is like to drive. The benefits of EV ownership are that they cost little to run and you get a lovely smug feeling from knowing you're saving the planet (apart from all that inconvenient mining).

I get the halo product approach but I just don't see the masses who appreciate the benefits of an EV ever aspiring to or wanting a £100k+ car even they had the funds. Tesla have disrupted the wrong sector.

its still very early days but there are some EVs that are reasonably priced sitting at mid spec focus money, Zoe starts at 22k, pug e208 25k, honda e 25k, MG ZS 22k, corsa 26k,

in a couple of years there will be a lot more choice, lower prices and discounting will be better as economics of scale kick in

[cidered77]

nunpuncher said:

The EV market needs an (original) mini moment. A car that every new driver can afford, a car that converts the next generation to only ever knowing what an electric vehicle is like to drive. The benefits of EV ownership are that they cost little to run and you get a lovely smug feeling from knowing you're saving the planet (apart from all that inconvenient mining).

I get the halo product approach but I just don't see the masses who appreciate the benefits of an EV ever aspiring to or wanting a £100k+ car even they had the funds. Tesla have disrupted the wrong sector.

You say that - but i'd lay good money these do very well in sales. And will absolutely smash the Panamera in volumes.

Some tool above called it "automotive virtue signalling" above, but if you assess it as just a car and not thing that means you're making a statement to the Internet: it is very f**king fast, it's not at all unattractive (hello Panamera again!), cool interior, something very clearly different to anything else: yep. this will sell.

Come to think of it - nobody moaned about the Panamera Turbo or the Aston Rapide costing 6 figures - so why this thing? It's worth what people will pay, and i reckon a lot will...

[u9ge]

nunpuncher said:

The EV market needs an (original) mini moment. A car that every new driver can afford, a car that converts the next generation to only ever knowing what an electric vehicle is like to drive. The benefits of EV ownership are that they cost little to run and you get a lovely smug feeling from knowing you're saving the planet (apart from all that inconvenient mining).

I get the halo product approach but I just don't see the masses who appreciate the benefits of an EV ever aspiring to or wanting a £100k+ car even they had the funds. Tesla have disrupted the wrong sector.

Are we not hitting that moment? Model 3 4th best selling car in the UK last month, diesel sales down 10%, BEV up 375%? What's Tony Seba's adoption curve, 10 years to 5%, 5 years to 50%?

Why on earth buy a new BMW 3 series when on trading it in in 3 years time there will half of the people you'd expect to buy it, EVs will be cheaper and better than they are now (especially with battery costs declining 24% YOY) just like buying a betamax in 88, a APS camera in 2001, mini disk in 2000 or a nokia in 07

Edited by u9ge on Friday 6th September 15:23

[jamoor]

u9ge said:

Are we not hitting that moment? Model 3 4th best selling car in the UK last month, diesel sales down 10%, BEV up 375%? What's Tony Seba's adoption curve, 10 years to 5%, 5 years to 50%?

Why on earth buy a new BMW 3 series when on trading it in in 3 years time EV will be cheaper and better than they are now (especially with battery costs declining 24% YOY) just like buying a betamax in 88, a APS camera in 2001, mini disk in 2000 or a nokia in 07

Yes the uptake on these things is exponential then tapers. We are at the beginning of the exponential part right now. It will taper when everyone that wants one has one. This market will mirror the smartphone market exactly with the Germans (BMW) (Nokia in smartphone market) going into extinction very quickly and the Chinese (polestar) arriving on the scene.

The Japanese though I can't figure out as companies like Suzuki produce small cars very cheaply and profitably so how long until they can become bev I don't know

[unsprung]

kmpowell said:

A £138k 'next generation' car, yet Porsche still continue to charge for (and make optional) basic items such as:

Reversing Camera - £480
Electric folding mirrors - £210
Adaptive cruise control - £1238
Lane Assist - £548
Comfort Access - £774

All of which are standard fit on a Golf GTI costing £105k less, let a lone standard on all Teslas which are also much cheaper.

The mind boggles, it really does. Sure, the argument will be "If you're spending £140k on a car, then a few k more won't matter", but that's not really the point IMO.

It's kind of like the extreme edges of the laws of physics, where one finds that standard expectations no longer apply. Once we get over a certain level of RRP, all bets are off. So to speak.

On the other hand, the people at Chevrolet are veritable Newtonian classicists in their approach to price for the Corvette.

[nunpuncher]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Agreed. We keep getting told these batteries that will provide huge range are coming, I've seen a gen 1 Tesla battery compared to a current gen battery and there is a notable difference in size and output but it just doesn't seem to translate to a huge difference in range in the real world and the technology just isn't advancing at the rate they keep promising. I'm actually not convinced it will advance much beyond it's current state.

[MDL111]

people certainly do not seem to have an issue with price - for a relatively mass-produced car with a starting price above 150k euros pre options, a delivery time of "hopefully Q2 next year if you order quickly" seems quite astonishing.

[Kubevoid]

The reason the batteries are the weak point... They never invested to make anything new. They are simply putting RC car toy batteries in by the thousand. Teslas Giga factory was also doing the same. Just churning out old tech in larger quantities.

Aerated battery cores multiply the surface area by thousands of times. Therefore increases the speed of charge and capacity by the same thousands of times over. However no large compancy has invested in this yet. So far it's still in the lab stage.

So for now all we have is Range Rover mass styled like sports cars. Although I hardly think any of them will want to nip around a tight corner!

[Talksteer]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

First rule of electric cars is like politics, learn to count.

The Tesla Model 3 is already the best selling regular car in the US adjusting for cost (sales X volume).

It goes more than 300 miles, weighs 1650kg and with supercharging you will run out of endurance on a road trip before the car does. Plot a journey to John o Groat's on their planner to see.

The UK is behind on Tesla's because firstly they've only just started selling the 3 and also because you pay a 10% tariff in the price. Gigafactory 4 will change that and they will probably break ground next year.

The Model 3 is the first mass market electric car, it will be the first to sell a million and it will be joined by the Model Y next year.

As for the price, the mean price for a new car in the UK is now £34,000, the Model 3 is therefore only slightly above average and is entirely competitive with cars of comparable size and performance.

The technology is already good enough, the fact that it gets better exponentially is the nail in the coffin for regular cars within 10 years.

[DonkeyApple]

jamoor said:

BFleming said:

This. I like driving on my own, and this summer I did the 1370 miles from home to Spain, picking the family up at Madrid airport before cracking on for the last 4 hours. I did the Channel Tunnel to Bayonne in one hit. Well rested the night beforehand, no comfort breaks, no coffee, no leg stretching, just did it, sitting at the speed limit everywhere, on about 3/4 tank of fuel. The next day I did the same thing, Bayonne to Madrid & on, no stops. Just cracked on & got it done. Doing that same journey & having to stop every 250 miles for a recharge, assuming the charge points are free, and then having to sit at the same prescribed speed as everyone else would be tortuous.
Electric cars will undoubtedly give the same range as the ICEs they will one day replace, but it's not there yet. The Taycan, amazing as I think it is, is an expensive folly.

You can probably save £200 on the journey in fuel alone using an electric car.

You could save £100,000 and not have to make a single change to how and where you wish to stop, if at all by just buying a comfortable diesel estate as well.

That’s the problem at the moment. The reality is that if you genuinely afford a £140k car then you are genuinely not going to care one iota about the cost of fuel. What you will care about is the inconvenience on your time and route that an EV will give you. And when you’re genuinely able to comfortably afford a £140k car you are going to be living a lifestyle that simply is less tolerant of silly restrictions.

Stretching one’s finances to the point that fuel costs are pertinent is only logical is you really, really, specifically want an EV and are happy to change parts of your routine to accommodate one.

But the majority of consumers will just entertain a premium EV if the product also happens to easily fit their routine, such as using one for a regular daily commute in and out of Town but having another car or hiring another car for those occasional long journeys.

The Taycan is probably going to be most popular in the UK for suburban households who also have other cars.