RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019
Discussion
InitialDave said:
Not that I disagree entirely on all your points about the new Defender, but there is something amusing about characterising people as sheep if they like a vehicle to which an apparent primary objection is its unsuitability for carrying sheep.
Apologies, maybe that needed explaining. I'm not saying people are sheep for liking the new Defender. I've already said I don't dislike it, just disappointed in it's styling and naming.But sheep was more aimed at people claiming something must be better, because a glossy magazine or YouTube review said so, or that other people are saying so. Rather than actually making their own mind up based on their own experience, or analysing the details and evidence into rational parameters.
Max_Torque said:
Can i just say this is by far the most pretentious thing i have EVER read on PH! Well done 300!
I'm old enough to remember the Series vehicles being replaced by the coil sprung 90 & 110, and guess what back then, people just like you were writing in to magazines moaning and complaining the new car wasn't a "proper landrover" and how could LR kill off the totally amazing and not in anyway completely outclassed and left behind by every other vehicle leaf sprung Series models.
So, get a grip man. The new Defender is the product of a LOT of effort by a lot of people who really do care about the marques history and have tried to do their best to make the model sit into the lineage as best they can, but with an eye to the future rather than to the past, which is, funnily enough, precisely what they did so successfully in 1983, despite the dyed-in-the-wool, stick-in-the-muds(sic) beardies thinking otherwise! What is certain though, is that the new model has a much shorter life cycle than those 1983 reboots.
Where have I said I do not like the vehicle?I'm old enough to remember the Series vehicles being replaced by the coil sprung 90 & 110, and guess what back then, people just like you were writing in to magazines moaning and complaining the new car wasn't a "proper landrover" and how could LR kill off the totally amazing and not in anyway completely outclassed and left behind by every other vehicle leaf sprung Series models.
So, get a grip man. The new Defender is the product of a LOT of effort by a lot of people who really do care about the marques history and have tried to do their best to make the model sit into the lineage as best they can, but with an eye to the future rather than to the past, which is, funnily enough, precisely what they did so successfully in 1983, despite the dyed-in-the-wool, stick-in-the-muds(sic) beardies thinking otherwise! What is certain though, is that the new model has a much shorter life cycle than those 1983 reboots.
300bhp/ton said:
But sheep was more aimed at people claiming something must be better, because a glossy magazine or YouTube review said so, or that other people are saying so. Rather than actually making their own mind up based on their own experience, or analysing the details and evidence into rational parameters.
Perhaps we can make some progress here - your inference was that the road manners of an original Discovery or Range Rover were not inferior by modern standards. Given that assertion, we can assume that you have driven a current Discovery 5 and a current L405 Range Rover - can you explain in what respects the road manners of those cars have not improved over their thirty-year-old predecessors?MC Bodge said:
It needs to be shown to be suitable for reliably carrying a .50 calibre machine gun for the all important jihadi market.
Even more crucially, if they don't also have a six-wheel version, Forward Control, fire tender, and an armoured half-track version ready at the same time then they might as well just shut the factory down now. That would be the final insult to those legendary men and women whose blood, sweat and tears were such a part of the soul of that iconic vehicle, the Defender.J4CKO said:
Companies dont really give a flying about whether something is regarded as a "proper" whatever by fundamentalists, they care whether it sells to keep money flowing in of those who can buy one, shareholders happy and folk paid.
This might be true. But it doesn't mean everyone has to like or agree with it though.J4CKO said:
someone I know put on FB today how the last of the line old Land Rovers were better than this new one ? even without a road test i can make an assumption that the new one will perform better in every way,
Every way, lol for someone who is also without a road test, how can you be so sure?Dynamically the new one should be superior in either every or almost every regard. But that doesn't necessarily translate to being a better vehicle overall, or for every use. How many people consider a Clio 197 to be "better" than latter variants or those on offer today for example?
How many people consider the Mk1 & 2 MX-5's to be better drivers cars than the MK3, despite at the time of launch the MK3 being better in every way.
So over engineered for the kind of hard life it’d get on a farm (hence off-road, towing weight etc)
But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
300bhp/ton said:
It is 100% not a Defender, not even close
100% not a defender? Not a single atom of similarity. What car is 1% closer then?FWIW, its comments like those that make you sound like a spotty 14yr old that is defending his being caught knocking one off to a well-thumbed copy of Razzle. And that not's only because he would be a w
ker 
300bhp/ton said:
But sheep was more aimed at people claiming something must be better, because a glossy magazine or YouTube review said so, or that other people are saying so. Rather than actually making their own mind up based on their own experience, or analysing the details and evidence into rational parameters.
I'm intrigued by this - how can you tell how someone else has formed their opinion, without asking them?Or are you making a straw-man argument?
DonkeyApple said:
300bhp/ton said:
try posting on a dedicated Land Rover forum that the Defender was first built in the 1940's and see what sort of response you get.
One can imagine that it would be remarkably similar to kicking a bedpan over in an asylum at 3am. Mr Whippy said:
So over engineered for the kind of hard life it’d get on a farm (hence off-road, towing weight etc)
But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
Same argument could be used for anyone that buys a supercar.But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
Ares said:
Mr Whippy said:
So over engineered for the kind of hard life it’d get on a farm (hence off-road, towing weight etc)
But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
Same argument could be used for anyone that buys a supercar.But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
Increasingly designed to empty the pockets of people who know no better, than serve their original intended purpose.
300bhp/ton said:
But what exactly "heritage" wise is this vehicle continuing or promoting? It is indeed a capable vehicle, but it is in no way following the lineage of the 1948 80 thru to the 2016 Defender. It is a vehicle for a completely different market segment, aimed at a completely different use and more than likely, largely a different owner base as well.
Again you continue to only see your own very narrowminded interests. What is it that you think this should have had to make it worthy of the heritage? Cart springs? An non synromesh gearbox? No leg room? A complete lack of crash protection?What does the people who buy it have to do with its Heritage? Besides which 90% of the Defenders I see don't go anywhere near a field, my brother has a purple wrapped 90 that's been lowered to the point of being near useless off road, and my uncle has a Twisted 90 that cost a lot of money even compared to this new one. That one hasn't seen a field in its life. If one farmer buys one of these and puts a sheep in the back will that make you change your mind? I doubt it.
300bhp/ton said:
So again, specifically what part of the Land Rover heritage in terms of making utility, agricultural, military, basic, rough and ready off roaders is this new vehicle following? Apart from sticking a name on the bonnet.
I could argue the case for all of them, its spacious in the back and can carry heavy loads and tow lots, that makes it utility, it has a GPS SatNav like all modern Tractors so that makes it agucultural, the military don't buy defenders anymore, haven't for years so thats a tough one. Basic no, like all modern cars it is legally required to have lots of features that make it safe however like all cars you can have a bottom of the range version which is relatively basic in comparison. Rough and ready off roaders, well every Land Rover I've been in (bar an Evoque with a Dynamic bodykit) has been very capable off road and reliable when taken there.All it really boils down to is that this product doesn't meet your very specific interests so instead of going elsewhere you've decided to fill this forum with your blithering nonsense and make it impossible for anyone to actually have a reasonable conversation about the vehicle.
This isn't a discussion about the old defender, this is a discussion about the new one, if you've got nothing to say other than I don't agree with the name then you've said that.
I can assure you I am not confused, just fed up. Now, to repeat again as others have, just go away and leave us to talk about what colour we'd have ours in.
BenjiS said:
Mr Whippy said:
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender
Nobody was buying the old Defender. That’s why JLR canned it and developed a new car. One that will actually sell. There are obviously a lot of wealthy people around who need such abilities in their car.
I’m surprised that it won’t increasingly step on sales of all the other stuff LR make.
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