RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019
Discussion
Jimbo89 said:
I can assure you I am not confused, just fed up. Now, to repeat again as others have, just go away and leave us to talk about what colour we'd have ours in.
Hear hearMine will be in that sort of matt green colour, unless they do a sort of British Racing Green. 110, quite basic but with alloys and leather seats.
Will look at the monthlies in 3 years after my leased Evoque goes back. It won't be used for any more off road than the rugby pitch, camping, floodwater and Yorkshire winters. It will be great on the school run. I may even put the logo of my wife's clothing company on the spare wheel cover.
I'm sure after 29 pages, there is nothing new to add other that one's own opinion.
I would never have bought an old Defender, but I actually really like the new 90. It clearly isn't really aimed at people that like or want a vehicle like the old Defender (Off road capability aside). I can understand why some people don't like this, but LR have taken the name (Basic shape and concept) and marketed it as an affluent lifestyle vehicle... not unlike the Mini - which has not done too badly sales-wise, even if you can't stomach the concept.
Not sure I'd pay £80k+ for one, but maybe outside of warranty in a few years these will become reasonable value, repair bills aside.
I would never have bought an old Defender, but I actually really like the new 90. It clearly isn't really aimed at people that like or want a vehicle like the old Defender (Off road capability aside). I can understand why some people don't like this, but LR have taken the name (Basic shape and concept) and marketed it as an affluent lifestyle vehicle... not unlike the Mini - which has not done too badly sales-wise, even if you can't stomach the concept.
Not sure I'd pay £80k+ for one, but maybe outside of warranty in a few years these will become reasonable value, repair bills aside.
Edited by Paddy78 on Wednesday 11th September 14:37
soxboy said:
Jimbo89 said:
I can assure you I am not confused, just fed up. Now, to repeat again as others have, just go away and leave us to talk about what colour we'd have ours in.
Hear hearMine will be in that sort of matt green colour, unless they do a sort of British Racing Green. 110, quite basic but with alloys and leather seats.
Will look at the monthlies in 3 years after my leased Evoque goes back. It won't be used for any more off road than the rugby pitch, camping, floodwater and Yorkshire winters. It will be great on the school run. I may even put the logo of my wife's clothing company on the spare wheel cover.
I used to love a good Yorkshire winter in my D4's, this was a few years ago now....
If I were JLR I would be more worried about the "defender" name causing people not want to buy their vehicle rather than the new one not being a good spiritual successor! I've been driving Wolf Defenders for more than 20 years now and think that they really are awful things.
This is a like the BMW mini and the original mini. They will sell loads. The original ones will continue to be maintained by the people who like them. However, if you want a rugged off road capable utility vehicle then buy a land cruiser or a hilux IMO.
This is a like the BMW mini and the original mini. They will sell loads. The original ones will continue to be maintained by the people who like them. However, if you want a rugged off road capable utility vehicle then buy a land cruiser or a hilux IMO.
Jimbo89 said:
I can assure you I am not confused, just fed up. Now, to repeat again as others have, just go away and leave us to talk about what colour we'd have ours in.
^^^ This...As for the new Defender, I'm torn... (another Alanis Morissette reference??)
I really like the new car but I can't decide between the 90 or the 110. However, what I would like to see is a 6cyl diesel option. I'm also quite keen to see the final 130, as that could be an interesting proposition for the base of an overland camper.
Looking at the lineup and the bodystyles, I suspect the Jeep Wrangler, Rubicon & Gladiator are firmly in LandRover's sights. LandRover will make a mint, even if they can tap just a small percentage of the US market.
M
Mr Whippy said:
Ares said:
Mr Whippy said:
So over engineered for the kind of hard life it’d get on a farm (hence off-road, towing weight etc)
But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
Same argument could be used for anyone that buys a supercar.But who needs that for normal road use?
And who’d buy one over a Disco3/4 type thing?
It’ll sell well to people who think they need it.
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender, and targeted people who were buying other brands or Disco3/4.
Just the tech alone puts me right off.
OTA updates that could ‘brick’ your ‘dependable’ car to get you from your snowed in moorland farm to civilisation?
Great idea. For people who just fanny around pretending to need this kinda car, but never really using it.
Increasingly designed to empty the pockets of people who know no better, than serve their original intended purpose.
300bhp/ton said:
J4CKO said:
Companies dont really give a flying about whether something is regarded as a "proper" whatever by fundamentalists, they care whether it sells to keep money flowing in of those who can buy one, shareholders happy and folk paid.
This might be true. But it doesn't mean everyone has to like or agree with it though.J4CKO said:
someone I know put on FB today how the last of the line old Land Rovers were better than this new one ? even without a road test i can make an assumption that the new one will perform better in every way,
Every way, lol for someone who is also without a road test, how can you be so sure?Dynamically the new one should be superior in either every or almost every regard. But that doesn't necessarily translate to being a better vehicle overall, or for every use. How many people consider a Clio 197 to be "better" than latter variants or those on offer today for example?
How many people consider the Mk1 & 2 MX-5's to be better drivers cars than the MK3, despite at the time of launch the MK3 being better in every way.
But, what I dont like is groups of blokes (always blokes) deciding its not like the old days, the new one cant be any good and congratulating each other on their fine taste, canniness and how all those "sheeple" will buy the new one, see also anything in the Daily Mail about a new Apple Product, the phrase "more money than sense" usually pops up, which to me means, skint, quite bitter about it and totally unable to see it from someone elses point of view.
Sometimes it does just seems like a lot of it is borne out of being able to only afford the cheaper option, 40 grand plus not an option, so may as well justify my choice, my only choice in the matter by saying the new one is the work of the devil, I say this as perhaps being a bit guilty of it in that past thinking about it.
I cant afford a 40 odd plus grand Land Rover, and I am not that bothered anyway, but fair play to those who can, doesnt make them "Sheep" or clueless, must have done something right to be able to spend that money on a nice new motor, and I bet that owning one of these, if you can make the outlay, over the duration will work out fairly cost effective.
yellowstreak said:
If I were JLR I would be more worried about the "defender" name causing people not want to buy their vehicle rather than the new one not being a good spiritual successor! I've been driving Wolf Defenders for more than 20 years now and think that they really are awful things.
This is a like the BMW mini and the original mini. They will sell loads. The original ones will continue to be maintained by the people who like them. However, if you want a rugged off road capable utility vehicle then buy a land cruiser or a hilux IMO.
This is what i don't get. Based on the comments there appears to be more people defending them than actually bought the damned things, certinley drived them.This is a like the BMW mini and the original mini. They will sell loads. The original ones will continue to be maintained by the people who like them. However, if you want a rugged off road capable utility vehicle then buy a land cruiser or a hilux IMO.
Defender's are terrible, noisy, leakey, uncomfortable things and people stopped buying them because they could get all they needed to do done in a Japanese pick-up in far more comfort. LR tired to make the Defender more "Up-market" years ago. Ford sold more Rangers per month than LR sold Defenders a year.
Dropped into my local dealer this morning to settle my spec. Asked him how sales were going on Day 2. He said that they had so far taken 28 deposits and confirmed 16 production specs for customers. Several of these were from existing Defender owners. He thinks they have a winner on their hands. I agreed with him. I also think there is a lot of potential for the commercial spec. It looks the part and should offer lots of flexibility about how the space inside is used for both, commercial and private users. Those who claim it is not or will not be a workhorse (like the original) will be proved to be wrong. It delivers highly competitive payload and towing capacities for which users will find uses.
As for being used on the school run, everyone needs to be reminded that this is not new. Land Rover drew attention to this use of the Land Rover in its advertising back in the 1950s. Although originally developed in a hurry (c 1 year), with farmers and the military in mind and drawing heavily on the Rover parts bin, its appeal spread to other uses unforeseen by the company. This is not unusual - people often think up unexpected uses for products that escaped the attention or imagination of their makers. I expect this latest generation to enjoy the same fate.
As for being used on the school run, everyone needs to be reminded that this is not new. Land Rover drew attention to this use of the Land Rover in its advertising back in the 1950s. Although originally developed in a hurry (c 1 year), with farmers and the military in mind and drawing heavily on the Rover parts bin, its appeal spread to other uses unforeseen by the company. This is not unusual - people often think up unexpected uses for products that escaped the attention or imagination of their makers. I expect this latest generation to enjoy the same fate.
J4CKO said:
the phrase "more money than sense" usually pops up, which to me means, skint, quite bitter about it and totally unable to see it from someone elses point of view.
I just translate anyone saying "more money than sense" into "more money than me". Which isn't far off your version!oldtimer2 said:
Dropped into my local dealer this morning to settle my spec. Asked him how sales were going on Day 2. He said that they had so far taken 28 deposits and confirmed 16 production specs for customers. Several of these were from existing Defender owners.
Oh now you're just being silly with these first hand accounts. Did you not tell him that the internet says he's wrong??Ares said:
100% not a defender? Not a single atom of similarity. What car is 1% closer then?
Would it sound better if I had said 5% similarity then? Yes it was a "Statement". But I'm sure you understood perfectly what I was implying and meaning from it. 
And apart from the name on the bonnet, how is this new Defender really any more similar to traditional Defender than a Disco 5 is?
Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I suspect a large part of the appeal of a traditional Defender is:
1. The look
2. It's charm
3. It's base design and ability
And probably in that order for the majority of owners/buyers.
Point 1 must be true, because why else would anyone spend £25k on a 2.2 Tdci Defender 110, when a £2000 Discovery 1 is dynamically better in terms of road manners, NVH, refinement, cabin space, interior. Basically all the things the Defender is usually slated for.
But here on PH and the dedicated Land Rover forums you get loads of threads of people saying "I always wanted a Defender and now have the money, what should I look for" or similar threads. And 9 times out of 10, they simply aren't interested and wouldn't even care to entertain owning a Discovery 1 or even a classic Range Rover.
Point 2 its charm. This comes from the design, live axle vehicles drive and corner differently to independent ones. And I'm not talking about at the limit of traction & grip cornering. Just general driving. They have a different "feel" about them, which translates into a different driving experience and is usually cited as"charm". The Defender also has a substantial chassis, but very lightweight body. It's roll centre is high due to its ground clearance, but it's centre of gravity is quite low compared to contemporary steel bodied 4x4's.
Anyone who has driven a Defender in anger on a country road will usually attest that they can be extremely fun to drive. Indeed there are even a couple of people in Readers Rides that are using Defenders as track day cars, one is even running a TVR Cebera V8 engine. Dynamically they may be dinosaurs, but this doesn't mean they aren't very enjoyable to pilot and make for high driver involvement and enjoyment.
Point 3 somewhat relates to point 2, it is all wrapped up in it's charm. But the traditional Defender is immensely deployable right out of the box. It didn't need fancy gadgets, it didn't even need axle diff locks, but would as a rule easily conquer terrain that would leave more sophisticated vehicles floundering. Being compact, especially in 90 guise means it has a true go anywhere ability anytime.
I've owned Discovery's, classic Range Rovers and p38's as well as having been in and used many more modern offerings. They are all great vehicles in their own rights, but none are as easy to take places off road as a Defender. And it is all down to the dimensions and shape of the bodywork and trim. In pretty much any LR product other than a Series or a Defender, it is all to easy to end up with scuffs, dents/dinks and damaged bumpers. Been there and done it, multiple times.
And the fact that you can buy a hardtop Defender 90 and turn it into a full tilt, pickup or station wagon gives the vehicle very broad appeal. As you can very easily tailor it to your intended use or preference. My Uncle for example converted his pickup 2012 plate 90 into a full tilt, despite LR not offering a full tilt for the UK market in that model year.
This new model has heaps of ability, although off road this is largely augmented by additional traction and stability devices. Which I don't really object to if I'm honest, although it does make for a more complex vehicle in some regards. An original VW Touareg is actually very capable off road too, largely down to using many similar types of technology. So this in many ways comes down to the charm side of things. And if you compare to a Wrangler or Jimny, they are both extremely capable too off road, but require no special kit in order to achieve this. Which offers a different dynamic feel to how the vehicles perform. And in my opinion, higher driver satisfaction and involvement.
This new model also doesn't seem to have the visual distinction and language of the original or even past Series models. It looks quite nice in isolation (not so keen on the high waste line), but if I wasn't told it was a Defender, I'd have been hard pushed to guess that is was. Overall it just seems to miss the mark on the major "appeal" points of the original.
Now if you compare to a Discovery 1, I can see a lot of similarity. Not just visually, but the intentions of what the vehicles is aiming to do, and importantly why and how it achieves them.
I can certainly see plenty of current L322, D3, D4 owners buying this new Defender to replace those vehicles. I can also see a new fold of customers buyers too, maybe from the Evoque or Discovery Sport type of owners, but also from other marques or those new to SUV's.
What I'm less sure of, is people trading in a traditional 90/110 for one of these. I'm sure there will be a few, but my hunch says they will be the minority. And people currently wanting to buy a traditional Defender and have already driven one (so they know what they are like). I suspect will also as a rule not suddenly be on the waiting list for one of these as an alternative.
300bhp/ton said:
Andeh1 said:
Brooking10 said:
300bhp/ton said:
As a die-hard Land Rover fan. No, not even remotely.
In fact it probably is the least cool. As it is purely designed and built for posers and pretenders.
Maybe they should have called it the Land Rover Pretender
Here's an idea.In fact it probably is the least cool. As it is purely designed and built for posers and pretenders.
Maybe they should have called it the Land Rover Pretender
Don't buy one.
Have you ever bought a new LR product ?
300bhp/ton is angry that the above is not the pivotal case study JLR uses to define all vehicle design.
The new Defender, much to 300bhp/ton's annoyance, will be more capable then 99% of the vehicles sold on the market and will probably exceed the original defender off-road capability in standard form in nigh on every way. For example - the new Defender can wade nearly twice times the depth of water then the old one. How about that.
Edited by Andeh1 on Tuesday 10th September 13:40
BenjiS said:
Mr Whippy said:
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender
Nobody was buying the old Defender. That’s why JLR canned it and developed a new car. One that will actually sell. I think 300s point can be summed up as:
What does the new Defender bring to the JLR lineup that didn't already exist?
If you want something soft inside but with off road ability for the school run, family duty, moving people between points A and B. You buy a Disco.
If you can afford more luxury/or you want that image. You buy a Range Rover.
If you want "x" you buy a new Defender.
What is "x" that's different to either of the first two options? Because it's not the things it used to be. So what thing(s) is it?
What does the new Defender bring to the JLR lineup that didn't already exist?
If you want something soft inside but with off road ability for the school run, family duty, moving people between points A and B. You buy a Disco.
If you can afford more luxury/or you want that image. You buy a Range Rover.
If you want "x" you buy a new Defender.
What is "x" that's different to either of the first two options? Because it's not the things it used to be. So what thing(s) is it?
300bhp/ton said:
BenjiS said:
Mr Whippy said:
But I think they’ve lost pretty much every person who was buying the old Defender
Nobody was buying the old Defender. That’s why JLR canned it and developed a new car. One that will actually sell. ...but anyway, we should be talking about the new car.
M
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