RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019

[deadtom]

DeltonaS said:

Looks great, more interesting than the new G wagon, which looks odd. Big step away from the original though.

Strange thing is Land Rover now has 5 models in sort of the same, overlapping price and vehicle category:

RR
RR Sport
Velar,
Discovery
Defender

Velar is on a different platform to the rest; it's a jacked up XF

[unrepentant]

As someone who makes a living from these things I am absolutely delighted with the new Defender. They have taken an icon and made it relevant for the 21st Century. We haven't had new Defenders in the US for 22 years and this is everything I had hoped for.

My phone was busy yesterday and deposits and build sheets were forthcoming. My only disappointment is that I know we will not get anywhere near enough of them in the first half of next year. Great job Gerry McGovern (again).

[Munter]

deadtom said:

Velar is on a different platform to the rest; it's a jacked up XF

How many buyers know or care about that?

I can't imagine Mr & Mrs Scroggins picking a Velar over a Disco or a RR sport because it's on a different platform.

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

1. The look
2. It's charm
3. It's base design and ability

The appeal is because it has been around, in one form or other, forever and (serendipitously) looks good - charm is a product of those things, and their associations.

Old things often have charm, despite their objective failings - draughty, creaky, crooked old houses may do, for example. Does that mean that you should expect a new house to be draughty, creaky and crooked?

Replacing the Defender is really a poisoned chalice exactly because it’s an antique - when Toyota build a new Land Cruiser with more modern bits, it will be a marginal upgrade on the version that was last replaced ten or fifteen years ago, the odd Luddite/macho man will moan, the world moves on. Land Rover delivering a marginal upgrade to the Defender just wasn’t going to work, because what they had was too far gone to upgrade; it was too small, too unsafe, too uncomfortable, too inefficient - even if some of those things are part of the “charm”.

[300bhp/ton]

Jimbo89 said:

Again you continue to only see your own very narrowminded interests.

Considering I'm being berated for mostly saying I don't love it. I'm not sure it is really me being narrowminded. In fact, what specific point have I not been open on?

Jimbo89 said:

What is it that you think this should have had to make it worthy of the heritage? Cart springs? An non synromesh gearbox? No leg room?

How in any shape or form do you believe any of those things are heritage?

Jimbo89 said:

What does the people who buy it have to do with its Heritage? Besides which 90% of the Defenders I see don't go anywhere near a field, my brother has a purple wrapped 90 that's been lowered to the point of being near useless off road, and my uncle has a Twisted 90 that cost a lot of money even compared to this new one. That one hasn't seen a field in its life. If one farmer buys one of these and puts a sheep in the back will that make you change your mind? I doubt it.

Again what has this to do with heritage? You fielded the question to me originally, stating the new model is being true to the Land Rover/Defender heritage. I simply asked you to explain/expand on this.

Jimbo89 said:

I could argue the case for all of them, its spacious in the back and can carry heavy loads and tow lots, that makes it utility

So does a Volvo or BMW estate. But they are not utility.

Jimbo89 said:

, it has a GPS SatNav like all modern Tractors so that makes it agucultural

I assume you are trying to be ironic (hope I'm not missing an m there relax, it's a joke not an insult). No, not all modern tractors have GPS SatNav, infact a large proportion do not.

Jimbo89 said:

, the military don't buy defenders anymore, haven't for years so thats a tough one.

for years you say, is that something to do with LR not actually making the Defender anymore as much as any other reason?

Defenders are still used across the globe by more than one military. And militaries still buy light civilian based trucks.

Jimbo89 said:

Basic no, like all modern cars it is legally required to have lots of features that make it safe however like all cars you can have a bottom of the range version which is relatively basic in comparison.

Jimbo89 said:

Rough and ready off roaders, well every Land Rover I've been in (bar an Evoque with a Dynamic bodykit) has been very capable off road and reliable when taken there.

What area are you in, do you have a Land Rover currently? You are more than welcome to join me in some off roading. Serious offer, I can PM if you are interested.

Jimbo89 said:

All it really boils down to is that this product doesn't meet your very specific interests

How do you surmise that? I haven't said that at all.

And no, I'm not talking about my specific interests. More if you look at what the past models offered in terms of attributes. This new vehicle is something very very different. Just as the 928 never really filled the brief for replacing the 911, which was the intention I believe. And low and behold Porsche still make a rear engine 911 today.

Jimbo89 said:

so instead of going elsewhere you've decided to fill this forum with your blithering nonsense and make it impossible for anyone to actually have a reasonable conversation about the vehicle.

I'm not stopping you doing anything, you can freely post and reply in this thread. Surely what we are doing now is having a conversation about this very vehicle. Only difference is, I didn't post "love it will be ordering when funds allow". Which would seem to be what your view is of it.

Jimbo89 said:

. Now, to repeat again as others have, just go away and leave us to talk about what colour we'd have ours in.

So what you are saying, this thread is only for people ordering one, not those who want to talk about the actual vehicle and it's design?

[300bhp/ton]

NomduJour said:

You’re the one, when asked, who is unable to explain their position. Again - what can the new Defender not do that the old one could? What is inferior?

Easy:

-The look
-The charm
-It's base ability & design

And how it goes about achieving what it does.

Serious question. Why do you think Land Rover kept the Defender in production for 27 years, when they should have just said buy a Discovery from 1989 onwards.

Could it be, that despite even using common components, design and construction. The they were still very different vehicles with different briefs.

[RacerMike]

300. You've basically just admitted that the only thing you'd consider to be a Defender would be the old Defender. And I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure the reason most people bought them towards the end of their life were:

1. For a potential investment. Prices were going up and up due to it's impending end.
2. For image. Driving one is associated with a certain type of person.

So regardless of what LR designed, you aren't going to like it. Unless they start up production of the old car again. Which won't happen.

[JP.Racing]

You've lost the plot, you must waste hours typing all these responses out...

I like it, I want one, I can't afford one, or actually have any need for one!

[Sporky]

300bhp/ton said:

NomduJour said:

You’re the one, when asked, who is unable to explain their position. Again - what can the new Defender not do that the old one could? What is inferior?

Easy:

-The look
-The charm
-It's base ability & design

And how it goes about achieving what it does.

The new one looks better, is more charming, and will inevitably be better on and off road.

That last bit is just weasel-words to say that they only way the new one could be better would be if it was the same.

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

Serious question. Why do you think Land Rover kept the Defender in production for 27 years, when they should have just said buy a Discovery from 1989 onwards.

Could it be, that despite even using common components, design and construction. The they were still very different vehicles with different briefs.

Could it be that, a) it owed them absolutely nothing, and b) they didn’t have a clue how to go about replacing it, despite several aborted attempts?

[300bhp/ton]

J4CKO said:

But, what I dont like is groups of blokes (always blokes) deciding its not like the old days, the new one cant be any good

I can assure you, that is not me, despite some on here trying to paint me as such. I do not dislike the vehicle. I am just disappointed in how it looks if it is meant to be a Defender (I'd have like to see something more distinctive). And I think they have either the wrong name or the wrong vehicle.

And I too can not afford one of these new. But can quite realistically see a used one sometime in the future being my chosen vehicle to fulfill the role my Range Rover currently does.

[DeltonaS]

deadtom said:

DeltonaS said:

Looks great, more interesting than the new G wagon, which looks odd. Big step away from the original though.

Strange thing is Land Rover now has 5 models in sort of the same, overlapping price and vehicle category:

RR
RR Sport
Velar
Discovery
Defender

Velar is on a different platform to the rest; it's a jacked up XF

May well be but the point is it's still a similar type of car. Most buyers will never know what they drive.

I wonder if there's still room for the Discovery.

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

Serious question. Why do you think Land Rover kept the Defender in production for 27 years, when they should have just said buy a Discovery from 1989 onwards.

Money for old rope...

To a certain extent they tried (Disco & Freelander commercials). Ford tried to kill it off during their ownership but it hung on, thanks partly to the passion for the product among the staff internally. (Don't forget there are a lot of enthusiasts who work for LR... So much so, there's even an internal LR Club. )

Ultimately the R&D had been paid for many years ago, so despite the significant overheads in production, it wasn't really making a loss and people were still buying it.

Now let's go back to deciding what colour looks best on the new car... Please...

M

Edited by camel_landy on Wednesday 11th September 16:04

[soxboy]

NomduJour said:

300bhp/ton said:

Serious question. Why do you think Land Rover kept the Defender in production for 27 years, when they should have just said buy a Discovery from 1989 onwards.

Could it be, that despite even using common components, design and construction. The they were still very different vehicles with different briefs.

Could it be that, a) it owed them absolutely nothing, and b) they didn’t have a clue how to go about replacing it, despite several aborted attempts?

and c) they sold very few of the base spec versions and lots more of the County/ XS models where they made sufficient profit on the extras/ fripperies, just like with the new one.

I would wager that only a small proportion of the last of the old ones went out as a base spec with no options at all.

Like the 'classic' Mini, they probably got another 4-5 years worth out of sales out of it through some canny marketing, and some product placement.

[300bhp/ton]

AngryPartsBloke said:

This is what i don't get. Based on the comments there appears to be more people defending them than actually bought the damned things, certinley drived them.

Defender's are terrible, noisy, leakey, uncomfortable things and people stopped buying them because they could get all they needed to do done in a Japanese pick-up in far more comfort. LR tired to make the Defender more "Up-market" years ago. Ford sold more Rangers per month than LR sold Defenders a year.

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	1915
2007	8137	3078
2006	8663	3249
2005	8584	2813
2004	9006	2018

[300bhp/ton]

oldtimer2 said:

Dropped into my local dealer this morning to settle my spec. Asked him how sales were going on Day 2. He said that they had so far taken 28 deposits and confirmed 16 production specs for customers. Several of these were from existing Defender owners.

But how many were trading in or replacing their old Defender with the new one, vs buying as an addition too?

[300bhp/ton]

camel_landy said:

Production was very labour intensive and the production line took up significantly more space than any of the other lines. It was a very expensive car to produce.


M

Yes have commented similar many times.

[300bhp/ton]

deadtom said:

DeltonaS said:

Looks great, more interesting than the new G wagon, which looks odd. Big step away from the original though.

Strange thing is Land Rover now has 5 models in sort of the same, overlapping price and vehicle category:

RR
RR Sport
Velar,
Discovery
Defender

Velar is on a different platform to the rest; it's a jacked up XF

Actually not so. The Velar is on the D7 platform, that underpins several of JLR's products, including the D7x that is under the new "Defender".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Land_Rover_ca...

[Jimbo89]

300bhp/ton said:

AngryPartsBloke said:

This is what i don't get. Based on the comments there appears to be more people defending them than actually bought the damned things, certinley drived them.

Defender's are terrible, noisy, leakey, uncomfortable things and people stopped buying them because they could get all they needed to do done in a Japanese pick-up in far more comfort. LR tired to make the Defender more "Up-market" years ago. Ford sold more Rangers per month than LR sold Defenders a year.

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	1915
2007	8137	3078
2006	8663	3249
2005	8584	2813
2004	9006	2018

Except he said Ranger which over the last 3 years has sold 134,100 units. Compared to the last 3 years of official Defender production which came to an amazing total of.....2,566.

[Shakermaker]

300bhp/ton said:

AngryPartsBloke said:

This is what i don't get. Based on the comments there appears to be more people defending them than actually bought the damned things, certinley drived them.

Defender's are terrible, noisy, leakey, uncomfortable things and people stopped buying them because they could get all they needed to do done in a Japanese pick-up in far more comfort. LR tired to make the Defender more "Up-market" years ago. Ford sold more Rangers per month than LR sold Defenders a year.

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	1915
2007	8137	3078
2006	8663	3249
2005	8584	2813
2004	9006	2018

OK but is the Navara a Ford Ranger?