RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019

[300bhp/ton]

unrepentant said:

As someone who makes a living from these things I am absolutely delighted with the new Defender. They have taken an icon and made it relevant for the 21st Century. We haven't had new Defenders in the US for 22 years and this is everything I had hoped for.

My phone was busy yesterday and deposits and build sheets were forthcoming. My only disappointment is that I know we will not get anywhere near enough of them in the first half of next year. Great job Gerry McGovern (again).

I can see the commercial sense in this. Although it probably falls into the category of milking the name/company heritage for short term sales gains. Although for JLR I suspect they will want to translate them into something longer term I daresay.

How many Wrangler owners do you think this model will snag in the USA? Do you feel that is were Land Rover USA are pitching it?

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	1915
2007	8137	3078
2006	8663	3249
2005	8584	2813
2004	9006	2018

They are actually the figures for the ones registered as private cars, and not commercial vehicles - so a small fraction of actual registrations. The world one-tonne pickup market is enormous.

[Jimbo89]

NomduJour said:

300bhp/ton said:

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	38254
2007	8137	34030
2006	8663	24174
2005	8584	12060
2004	9006	4646

They are actually the figures for the ones registered as private cars, and not commercial vehicles - so a small fraction of actual registrations. The world one-tonne pickup market is enormous.

Table numbers adjusted to show the volumes including those registered as light goods vehicles...

[Pintofbest]

NomduJour said:

They are actually the figures for the ones registered as private cars, and not commercial vehicles - so a small fraction of actual registrations. The world one-tonne pickup market is enormous.

The figures are also very carefully selected:

2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137

[300bhp/ton]

NomduJour said:

The appeal is because it has been around, in one form or other, forever and (serendipitously) looks good - charm is a product of those things, and their associations.

Well exactly, which is why I've been saying I think this new one is wide of the marque when being badged as a Defender. As a Discovery is would be bang on!

NomduJour said:

Old things often have charm, despite their objective failings - draughty, creaky, crooked old houses may do, for example. Does that mean that you should expect a new house to be draughty, creaky and crooked?

I think maybe look at how Porsche have kept the 911 relevant, yet still clearly a 911. The technology and specifications have change. But all the bits that made past 911's great are still there in the latest ones. Except for the air cooled engine, which was down the a legal requirement to meet emissions.

Have Land Rover really achieved the same here? Have they managed to keep all the bits of design and styling they could, but wrap it up in a modern product? I'm yet to be convinced of this.

NomduJour said:

Replacing the Defender is really a poisoned chalice exactly because it’s an antique - when Toyota build a new Land Cruiser with more modern bits, it will be a marginal upgrade on the version that was last replaced ten or fifteen years ago.

Toyota did a really good job IMO when they launched the FJ Cruiser. A perfect way to update an old model to make it relevant in a modern world. Shame it never made it's way to Europe.

[Sporky]

That's hilarious.

Basically, the Defender outsold the Navara eleven years ago, as long as you didn't count most of the Navaras.

[yellowbentines]

I want one. I'd be happy with a 3 door 90, in white, white steelies, and I'd only add black plastic wheel arch covers and roof rails - it'd do everything I need and want from a car and more.

I wouldn't consider buying one for a couple of years however until I see what faults develop, and if Land Rover decide to do anything about resolving them in the manufacturing process and at dealer level.

I read of faults with the very popular big selling Discovery Sport - creaking due to poor spot welding, oil dilution (does the new Defender use the same engines?) etc - have LR addressed these issues in the manufacturing process after them being on sale for years, or do they think why bother as people flock to buy their products anyway?

If those who need a rugged, 100% dependable vehicle aren't the target market for the new Defender anyway, why would I believe this will be any more reliable than any of the current products that get slated for being full of issues?

[Jimbo89]

Sporky said:

That's hilarious.

Basically, the Defender outsold the Navara eleven years ago, as long as you didn't count most of the Navaras.

The 2018 figure is 63,912. I think the trend shows a definite move by 'traditional' Defender buyers to a more modern vehicle design.

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

I think maybe look at how Porsche have kept the 911 relevant, yet still clearly a 911. The technology and specifications have change. But all the bits that made past 911's great are still there in the latest ones. Except for the air cooled engine, which was down the a legal requirement to meet emissions.

Have Land Rover really achieved the same here? Have they managed to keep all the bits of design and styling they could, but wrap it up in a modern product? I'm yet to be convinced of this.

Good example, because if you compare a 992 with (say) a 1989 last-of-line 911 - with the exception of the engine being roughly at the same end - they might as well be from different universes.

The FJ Cruiser is a sorry pastiche stuck on top of existing mechanicals (a bit like the “new” Beetle) - it’s everything you’re complaining about.

[AngryPartsBloke]

300bhp/ton said:

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	1915
2007	8137	3078
2006	8663	3249
2005	8584	2813
2004	9006	2018

Wow, I'm not going to argue the point with you because there's clearly no point. I said ranger, you've picked random figures against the navara and stopped at 2008 because you think it works for your point.


In any case, with the model range people are forgetting subjective desire. Discovery, RRS and New Defender all meet my vehicle needs and each does something different that's "extra". Subjectively I'd go for the disco if the original defender was still in production but now I'd go for the new Defender.

[Cold]

Ah yes, the Nissan Navara. Good example of a rugged car - as long as you overlook a minor flaw.

[Mammasaid]

Cold said:

Ah yes, the Nissan Navara. Good example of a rugged car - as long as you overlook a minor flaw.

To be fair to Nissan, that was the previous model, not the current one.

In any case, Ford sold over 16,000 Rangers in the UK alone last year, in fact having a quick tot up gives around 50,000 one tonne pick ups sold in the UK in 2018.

http://pickupand4x4.co.uk/best-selling-pickups-uk

[soxboy]

NomduJour said:

300bhp/ton said:

I think maybe look at how Porsche have kept the 911 relevant, yet still clearly a 911. The technology and specifications have change. But all the bits that made past 911's great are still there in the latest ones. Except for the air cooled engine, which was down the a legal requirement to meet emissions.

Have Land Rover really achieved the same here? Have they managed to keep all the bits of design and styling they could, but wrap it up in a modern product? I'm yet to be convinced of this.

Good example, because if you compare a 992 with (say) a 1989 last-of-line 911 - with the exception of the engine being roughly at the same end - they might as well be from different universes.

The FJ Cruiser is a sorry pastiche stuck on top of existing mechanicals (a bit like the “new” Beetle) - it’s everything you’re complaining about.

1984 911 (same year as 110 unveiled)


2019 911 (just released same time as 'new Defender')


Original FJ


Pastiche FJ


Can't see any difference to what LR are doing now.

[Munter]

AngryPartsBloke said:

Subjectively I'd go for the disco if the original defender was still in production but now I'd go for the new Defender.

But that's the point isn't it? The models now overlap so much that you'd take either to do the job. But JLR have the costs associated with developing and supporting both, but still only get one amount of cash from any buyers.

They've exited the segment the Defender used to be in, and introduced new Defender into a segment they already have products in that they don't appear to be planning to drop. Is there a compelling answer as to why this is a good plan?

[300bhp/ton]

RacerMike said:

300. You've basically just admitted that the only thing you'd consider to be a Defender would be the old Defender.

I do like Defenders and have owned one. But no, that isn't what I'm trying to say. I wished/hoped LR would do the same for the Defender as Jeep did with the Wrangler.

Basically re-envision it as a new vehicle. True to the designs/vision of the original.


For example. I personally really liked the direction LR was going with these. It still looked like a Land Rover and specifically a Defender. But solved many of the design issues with the older model. It was evolution, rather than revolution.




I have frequently and often slated the Defender for it's lack of development and still running Rover P4 diffs! among other things.

RacerMike said:

And I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure the reason most people bought them towards the end of their life were:

1. For a potential investment. Prices were going up and up due to it's impending end.
2. For image. Driving one is associated with a certain type of person.

Maybe so, although I'd like to think more positively. I certainly know a good number of late model Defender owners who didn't buy for the reasons you state.

RacerMike said:

So regardless of what LR designed, you aren't going to like it. Unless they start up production of the old car again. Which won't happen.

Simply not true at all. I have repeatedly said I do not dislike this new vehicle. And I like many of the other vehicles produced by LR in recent times.

[300bhp/ton]

NomduJour said:

300bhp/ton said:

Serious question. Why do you think Land Rover kept the Defender in production for 27 years, when they should have just said buy a Discovery from 1989 onwards.

Could it be, that despite even using common components, design and construction. The they were still very different vehicles with different briefs.

Could it be that, a) it owed them absolutely nothing, and b) they didn’t have a clue how to go about replacing it, despite several aborted attempts?

But surely applying your rational and logic. They had already replaced with the 1989 Discovery. It does all the things you have been citing a Defender must be able to do.

[C70R]

300bhp/ton said:

Jimbo89 said:

Again you continue to only see your own very narrowminded interests.

Considering I'm being berated for mostly saying I don't love it. I'm not sure it is really me being narrowminded. In fact, what specific point have I not been open on?

Jimbo89 said:

What is it that you think this should have had to make it worthy of the heritage? Cart springs? An non synromesh gearbox? No leg room?

How in any shape or form do you believe any of those things are heritage?

Jimbo89 said:

What does the people who buy it have to do with its Heritage? Besides which 90% of the Defenders I see don't go anywhere near a field, my brother has a purple wrapped 90 that's been lowered to the point of being near useless off road, and my uncle has a Twisted 90 that cost a lot of money even compared to this new one. That one hasn't seen a field in its life. If one farmer buys one of these and puts a sheep in the back will that make you change your mind? I doubt it.

Again what has this to do with heritage? You fielded the question to me originally, stating the new model is being true to the Land Rover/Defender heritage. I simply asked you to explain/expand on this.

Jimbo89 said:

I could argue the case for all of them, its spacious in the back and can carry heavy loads and tow lots, that makes it utility

So does a Volvo or BMW estate. But they are not utility.

Jimbo89 said:

, it has a GPS SatNav like all modern Tractors so that makes it agucultural

I assume you are trying to be ironic (hope I'm not missing an m there relax, it's a joke not an insult). No, not all modern tractors have GPS SatNav, infact a large proportion do not.

Jimbo89 said:

, the military don't buy defenders anymore, haven't for years so thats a tough one.

for years you say, is that something to do with LR not actually making the Defender anymore as much as any other reason?

Defenders are still used across the globe by more than one military. And militaries still buy light civilian based trucks.

Jimbo89 said:

Basic no, like all modern cars it is legally required to have lots of features that make it safe however like all cars you can have a bottom of the range version which is relatively basic in comparison.

Jimbo89 said:

Rough and ready off roaders, well every Land Rover I've been in (bar an Evoque with a Dynamic bodykit) has been very capable off road and reliable when taken there.

What area are you in, do you have a Land Rover currently? You are more than welcome to join me in some off roading. Serious offer, I can PM if you are interested.

Jimbo89 said:

All it really boils down to is that this product doesn't meet your very specific interests

How do you surmise that? I haven't said that at all.

And no, I'm not talking about my specific interests. More if you look at what the past models offered in terms of attributes. This new vehicle is something very very different. Just as the 928 never really filled the brief for replacing the 911, which was the intention I believe. And low and behold Porsche still make a rear engine 911 today.

Jimbo89 said:

so instead of going elsewhere you've decided to fill this forum with your blithering nonsense and make it impossible for anyone to actually have a reasonable conversation about the vehicle.

I'm not stopping you doing anything, you can freely post and reply in this thread. Surely what we are doing now is having a conversation about this very vehicle. Only difference is, I didn't post "love it will be ordering when funds allow". Which would seem to be what your view is of it.

Jimbo89 said:

. Now, to repeat again as others have, just go away and leave us to talk about what colour we'd have ours in.

So what you are saying, this thread is only for people ordering one, not those who want to talk about the actual vehicle and it's design?

Ah... we're into multi-quote and 'debating the definition of words' territory.

This is a classic 300 thread. One for the ages.

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

But surely applying your rational and logic. They had already replaced with the 1989 Discovery. It does all the things you have been citing a Defender must be able to do.

Back in 1989, I very much doubt they expected to still be selling the same Defender in 2016. Anyway, we once had a Special Vehicles 300 Tdi Discovery van - it was better than a Defender.

[300bhp/ton]

Jimbo89 said:

Except he said Ranger which over the last 3 years has sold 134,100 units. Compared to the last 3 years of official Defender production which came to an amazing total of.....2,566.

He also said Japanese trucks. Which the Navara is. There seems to be a perception that LR sold something like 50 Defenders year on year, while the Jap trucks sold in their tens of thousands. I was just adding some actual figures to show that isn't entirely accurate.

[300bhp/ton]

Shakermaker said:

300bhp/ton said:

AngryPartsBloke said:

This is what i don't get. Based on the comments there appears to be more people defending them than actually bought the damned things, certinley drived them.

Defender's are terrible, noisy, leakey, uncomfortable things and people stopped buying them because they could get all they needed to do done in a Japanese pick-up in far more comfort. LR tired to make the Defender more "Up-market" years ago

I know were you are coming from, but looking at some stats, the numbers don't fully stack up to support this conclusion.

EU Sales:

Year	Defender	Navara
2008	8089	1915
2007	8137	3078
2006	8663	3249
2005	8584	2813
2004	9006	2018

OK but is the Navara a Ford Ranger?