RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I guess it is also plausible that there is no plan for there to be a Discovery 6?
If the 90, 110 and 130 fulfill the role of the Disco and Disco Sport and they can create a model range that spans from the affordable end of the LR bracket up to sitting under/next to the Range Rover Sport then maybe they don’t plan to continue with the Disco brand?
Interesting thought. If they are strapped for cash, and it looks as though it is very tight for everything they want to do, it could be put on the back burner. The development of the D7X for the Defender looks like it might be a departure from the previously declared strategy (at Investor Day presentations in September 2018) of a move to the MLA platform to accommodate ICE, MHEV, PHEV and BEV powertrains. The new Defender it seems will not be BEV compatible and the 4 cylinder engines at launch are not 48 volt mild hybrids even though they do appear on the recently launched Evoque and Disco Sports modular transverse platform.If the 90, 110 and 130 fulfill the role of the Disco and Disco Sport and they can create a model range that spans from the affordable end of the LR bracket up to sitting under/next to the Range Rover Sport then maybe they don’t plan to continue with the Disco brand?
J4CKO said:
camel_landy said:
J4CKO said:
camel_landy said:
J4CKO said:
I think DA is probably right judging by the number of RR products and other high end cars I see round here, there is more money about, think a lot is on finance but still need a decent wage coming in to support than.
Next door has a new Discovery, folks at the back have a Velar, RR Sport SVR next door but one they are everywhere, make me wonder what I am doing wrong
Ahhh... That's where my observations come in, regarding the devaluing/diluting of the brand. I too see a lot of Range Rovers about but I can also see a lot of them are very low spec.Next door has a new Discovery, folks at the back have a Velar, RR Sport SVR next door but one they are everywhere, make me wonder what I am doing wrong
The effect of this means the residuals in the second hand market will drop but if 'everyone' can afford one, it no-longer becomes an 'aspirational' brand. It may well be 'snobbish' but once the 'riff-raff' are driving around in Range Rovers, it looses it's exclusivity and as such, some customers will move elsewhere.
OK, so it'll be somewhat more nuanced than that but you get the idea.
M
Snip...
So they need volume to compete, what they are doing now is right, given the lay of the land and if they try to do what LR enthusiasts want they would end up like off road Bristols (Fnarr), the only qualification for getting a car should be whether you can pay for it, not whether the company likes the cut of your job or deems you a bit plebby for their products.
M
M
A Preliminary Look Round the Gubbins
There's nothing like a full-on review, on road and off, to assess a vehicle like Defender. This article isn't that. But it does reveal some interesting bits and bobs.
"One thing I have to give Land Rover lots of credit for is how its engineers were able to tuck much of the drivetrain—especially the two-speed transfer case and front and rear driveshafts—so high up."
"When traversing off-road terrain, you want your vehicle to have as many tires on the ground as possible to maximize grip. Independent suspensions with short control arms, like the design on the new Defender, simply don’t allow much flex, and the result is tires lifting off from terra firma."
article here
https://jalopnik.com/what-i-found-when-i-crawled-u...
loudlashadjuster said:
My sample of 1 (one) respondent confirmed that I would seriously consider a Defender, but have no real desire for a Discovery.
I loved the D4, my wife hated it. Hence, we would never have had one.We both liked the D5 and we have one.
We both like the new Defender, maybe it will replace our second car one day.
You now have two respondents. This one has gone from owning zero LRs to owning one and would seriously consider owning two.
D5 is a large, luxury family car, at least in high specs. None of the Defender/RRS/Velar/FFRR cover the same market. Neither does the D5 cover theirs.
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
Sad but true. and you are of course right, but that truth doesn't make me happy and it shouldn't make you happy either.
In the end days of defender production, utilities and many other commercial buyers were buying loads of defenders and stockpiling them for their own use - there's a reason for that.
Now there is no domestic replacement that they can buy. Don't you think thats rather sad?
Anecdotally, I was on a shoot last year and the team wanted a photo - they all wanted to be photographed in front of - guess what - my green defender 90 - not the range rover, not the pickup truck, not the mercedes G, not the cayenne, says something doesn't it.
What does the new Defender do worse than the old one? So much worse that it cannot be the replacement? In the end days of defender production, utilities and many other commercial buyers were buying loads of defenders and stockpiling them for their own use - there's a reason for that.
Now there is no domestic replacement that they can buy. Don't you think thats rather sad?
Anecdotally, I was on a shoot last year and the team wanted a photo - they all wanted to be photographed in front of - guess what - my green defender 90 - not the range rover, not the pickup truck, not the mercedes G, not the cayenne, says something doesn't it.
Firstly, for your needs and, secondly, for the utilities and other commercial buyers who apparently stockpiled the old one?
Leithen said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
This thread just needs Bill Murray, Andi Macdowell and a blizzard to complete the picture 
That would knacker the plot. If they’d been in a new Defender they would have made through the blizzard and back to Pittsburgh. 
It'd just be another plot device where he gradually becomes a LR tech repeatedly fixing it. Bill said:
Leithen said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
This thread just needs Bill Murray, Andi Macdowell and a blizzard to complete the picture
That would knacker the plot. If they’d been in a new Defender they would have made through the blizzard and back to Pittsburgh. It'd just be another plot device where he gradually becomes a LR tech repeatedly fixing it. I think a remake and modern interpretation of GHD is a lovely idea. The idea of a customer never being able to leave town because every morning his car has to be returned to the dealer to fix a minor but persistent niggle that no one can fix. But it’s a non starter without a Ned Ryerson and it’s implausible that you could ever find such a person.
Max_Torque said:
soxboy said:
The thing is, even the great white hope that is the Ineos Defender may still not be the salvation. Article linked below has various points including:
'BMW engines - either BMW’s 252bhp 2.0-litre turbocharged petrol, and BMW’s 261bhp 3.0-litre straight-six diesels'.
'The company is targeting a working audience, hoping to capitalise on the booming four-wheel-drive double-cab pick-up market, offering Projekt Grenadier as an alternative to the Volkswagen Amarok, Ford Ranger and Mercedes X Class'.
'Prices are yet to be officially announced, but INEOS has confirmed that it will “not be competing at the bottom end of the market.” Expect a starting price of around £30,000, climbing to around £45,000 for range-topping models'.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/land-rover/defender/...
Ineos are basically trying to cash in on "charm" to persuade people to spend premium money on a basic product. Yes, there is a small market, for a very lean company to perhaps break even selling a small number of products, but it ain't going to rewrite any rules if it ever gets to production.....'BMW engines - either BMW’s 252bhp 2.0-litre turbocharged petrol, and BMW’s 261bhp 3.0-litre straight-six diesels'.
'The company is targeting a working audience, hoping to capitalise on the booming four-wheel-drive double-cab pick-up market, offering Projekt Grenadier as an alternative to the Volkswagen Amarok, Ford Ranger and Mercedes X Class'.
'Prices are yet to be officially announced, but INEOS has confirmed that it will “not be competing at the bottom end of the market.” Expect a starting price of around £30,000, climbing to around £45,000 for range-topping models'.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/land-rover/defender/...
They have zero understanding of the car industry and some ideas that have already been proven not to work.
For example, if your vehicle breaks down or need servicing, you probably want it fixed by your local Ineos dealer not by a "central service function " somewhere in the UK (as yet undefined location)
People prefer to buy from people and like the reassurance of being able to pop onto a local dealer when necessary.
Buy apparently having dealers is "a broken business model " despite it working for just about everyone else.
Isn’t it there intent that the customer fixes their car, or the local village mechanic or the UN pool garage?
If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
DonkeyApple said:
Isn’t it there intent that the customer fixes their car, or the local village mechanic or the UN pool garage?
If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
If you were buying a very cheap, budget car, maybe, but what local garage is going to invest in tools and training in order to fix your car on the promise that some company he has never heard of will pay the bill in x months time?If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
What happens if the local garage doesn't fit all the right parts? Or if it fails again?
Their business model is shot full of holes, both logistical and legal.
I have been in the industry long enough to have encountered all these things and it just doesn't work.
DonkeyApple said:
Isn’t it there intent that the customer fixes their car, or the local village mechanic or the UN pool garage?
If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
That BMW TwinPower turbo diesel should be a piece of piss to mend with a hammer and a Haynes manual.If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
Jazzy Jag said:
DonkeyApple said:
Isn’t it there intent that the customer fixes their car, or the local village mechanic or the UN pool garage?
If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
If you were buying a very cheap, budget car, maybe, but what local garage is going to invest in tools and training in order to fix your car on the promise that some company he has never heard of will pay the bill in x months time?If they want to compete against the massive global firms then they can’t really afford to have any real estate or labour costs outside of the factory.
Cars and parts all sold online and delivered to the customer who looks after everything themself because the product is so simple?
What happens if the local garage doesn't fit all the right parts? Or if it fails again?
Their business model is shot full of holes, both logistical and legal.
I have been in the industry long enough to have encountered all these things and it just doesn't work.
To be honest, I think the only way he could get this to work is if he sells them as knock down kits thus shifting much of the labour onto the consumer or end market etc.
Or you could pick a global manufacturer and just use their parts and tools so that their service centres can maintain the vehicles.
Like you, I don’t really see how it can be done from the UK, sold and maintained overseas and meet all the differing and evolving legal requirements and cost anywhere near what is currently being projected.
unsprung said:
A Preliminary Look Round the Gubbins
There's nothing like a full-on review, on road and off, to assess a vehicle like Defender. This article isn't that. But it does reveal some interesting bits and bobs.
"One thing I have to give Land Rover lots of credit for is how its engineers were able to tuck much of the drivetrain—especially the two-speed transfer case and front and rear driveshafts—so high up."
"When traversing off-road terrain, you want your vehicle to have as many tires on the ground as possible to maximize grip. Independent suspensions with short control arms, like the design on the new Defender, simply don’t allow much flex, and the result is tires lifting off from terra firma."
article here
https://jalopnik.com/what-i-found-when-i-crawled-u...
Another person (the author of that article) who doesn't understand the simple correlation difference between roll stiffness and axle articulation. This must be where 300 gets his info :-)There's nothing like a full-on review, on road and off, to assess a vehicle like Defender. This article isn't that. But it does reveal some interesting bits and bobs.
"One thing I have to give Land Rover lots of credit for is how its engineers were able to tuck much of the drivetrain—especially the two-speed transfer case and front and rear driveshafts—so high up."
"When traversing off-road terrain, you want your vehicle to have as many tires on the ground as possible to maximize grip. Independent suspensions with short control arms, like the design on the new Defender, simply don’t allow much flex, and the result is tires lifting off from terra firma."
article here
https://jalopnik.com/what-i-found-when-i-crawled-u...
Max_Torque said:
Another person (the author of that article) who doesn't understand the simple correlation difference between roll stiffness and axle articulation. This must be where 300 gets his info :-)
Also,in the example picture he uses, I'm not sure there's ever been a production car which wouldn't raise a wheel in that situation, and a wheel off the ground is a wheel off the ground, whether it's by an inch or two feet.Whether the wheel being off the ground actually matters is a further discussion!
InitialDave said:
Also,in the example picture he uses, I'm not sure there's ever been a production car which wouldn't raise a wheel in that situation, and a wheel off the ground is a wheel off the ground, whether it's by an inch or two feet.
Whether the wheel being off the ground actually matters is a further discussion!
Is that dialogue from a deleted scene in the first fast and furious film? Lol.Whether the wheel being off the ground actually matters is a further discussion!
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