RE: Land Rover Defender walkaround | Frankfurt 2019
Discussion
Why all the vitriol? He said there’s a huge following, there is. I’m sure marketing studies would show a following and a market for a more rugged replacement. And some are disappointed.
But nobody is saying that would better or easier to sell than what has been created. Calm down everyone and let each other express what they’d prefer.
But nobody is saying that would better or easier to sell than what has been created. Calm down everyone and let each other express what they’d prefer.
Max_Torque said:
Ok, prove it. It's easy to say, so prove it to us. Prove you are right, and we are wrong. show us actual facts that show this "huge" market?
Let me present the case for the opposition:
Land Rover Defender European sales by year
2018 1
2017 7
2016 182
2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137
2006 8.663
2005 8.584
2004 9.006
2003 8.276
2002 7.446
2001 5.326
2000 7.350
1999 6.596
1998 5.428
1997 4.850
Clearly, based on actual facts, there is no "huge market" for a utility defender.
It's time to face facts and shut up 300;
1) There is no huge market for a purely utilitarian vehicle
2) if there was, JLR would make one
You can have an opinion, everyone can, but actual facts shows yours to be wrong. That's fine, everyone is allowed to be wrong. The difference is that most people when clearly shown the erroneous nature of their opinion should be smart enough to change that opinion......
Let me present the case for the opposition:
Land Rover Defender European sales by year
2018 1
2017 7
2016 182
2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137
2006 8.663
2005 8.584
2004 9.006
2003 8.276
2002 7.446
2001 5.326
2000 7.350
1999 6.596
1998 5.428
1997 4.850
Clearly, based on actual facts, there is no "huge market" for a utility defender.
It's time to face facts and shut up 300;
1) There is no huge market for a purely utilitarian vehicle
2) if there was, JLR would make one
You can have an opinion, everyone can, but actual facts shows yours to be wrong. That's fine, everyone is allowed to be wrong. The difference is that most people when clearly shown the erroneous nature of their opinion should be smart enough to change that opinion......
you do seriously get wound up that people like Defenders don't you. 
BTW - "following" and "market" are not the same word
But don't you think it odd, if there was no following, why on Earth are there so many forums for them, owners groups and clubs and lots for sale, as well as an entire industry making aftermarket parts and accessories for them?
I do know where 300bhp is coming from: this Defender is, in absolute terms, closer in function to an early Disco than an early Land Rover, and it would be nice if the New Defender could have been a straightforward modernisation like the Wrangler or a modern competitive pick-up of the sort that the people who used to buy LRs have turned to over the past 30 years.
BUT
I don't see why they continue to opine as if this was ever remotely going to happen, as if JLR ever had to make a choice between 'proper utility 4x4' and 'modern high-cost high-tech SUV for the developed world'. The latter (what we have ended up with) was the only New Defender we were ever going to get, for reasons that I and others have explained in great detail in this and previous threads.
300 mistakes the 'following' for 'a market'. The legions of LR fans are nearly, to a man, people who don't buy new vehicles. As the old Defender's sales figures proved, the number of people who liked the old one enough to send money JLR's way is miniscule. There are probably many times more people who wouldn't say they're Landy fanatics but admire and like 'The Defender' even though the old one was hopeless as a purchase proposition for them. But the new one is perfect for these people and for every camo-jacketed enthusiast with a 25-year old 90 Hard Top who swears off the brand (which they never directly supported...) forever, they'll attract 100 newcomers.
BUT
I don't see why they continue to opine as if this was ever remotely going to happen, as if JLR ever had to make a choice between 'proper utility 4x4' and 'modern high-cost high-tech SUV for the developed world'. The latter (what we have ended up with) was the only New Defender we were ever going to get, for reasons that I and others have explained in great detail in this and previous threads.
300 mistakes the 'following' for 'a market'. The legions of LR fans are nearly, to a man, people who don't buy new vehicles. As the old Defender's sales figures proved, the number of people who liked the old one enough to send money JLR's way is miniscule. There are probably many times more people who wouldn't say they're Landy fanatics but admire and like 'The Defender' even though the old one was hopeless as a purchase proposition for them. But the new one is perfect for these people and for every camo-jacketed enthusiast with a 25-year old 90 Hard Top who swears off the brand (which they never directly supported...) forever, they'll attract 100 newcomers.
2xChevrons said:
I do know where 300bhp is coming from: this Defender is, in absolute terms, closer in function to an early Disco...But the new one is perfect for these people and for every camo-jacketed enthusiast with a 25-year old 90 Hard Top who swears off the brand (which they never directly supported...) forever, they'll attract 100 newcomers.
This ^ to the nth degree.Hear hear!
Anyway, Land Rover have finally produced an all new version of the vehicle they were named for, I'm still hoping for a commercial version so I can drive one.
People saying the beardy cable knit sweater brigade aren't relevant to this new model are dead right btw, I'm a Series owner and so are my dad and brother, the newest Landie my dad has ever bought is the one I now own which was about six years old when he bought it. In 1970.
People saying the beardy cable knit sweater brigade aren't relevant to this new model are dead right btw, I'm a Series owner and so are my dad and brother, the newest Landie my dad has ever bought is the one I now own which was about six years old when he bought it. In 1970.
300bhp/ton said:
you do seriously get wound up that people like Defenders don't you. BTW - "following" and "market" are not the same word
But don't you think it odd, if there was no following, why on Earth are there so many forums for them, owners groups and clubs and lots for sale, as well as an entire industry making aftermarket parts and accessories for them?
BTW note the excellent axle articulation. nothing to do with being beam axles, everything to do with having a very low cross axle spring rate.....)
I spent 8 years of my life working for four wheel drive specialists, building engines, chassis, and doing all manner of custom conversions (like a coil sprung, supercharged 4.6 litre 100" forward control...) I've raced off road with the AWD club and the ARC, i've driven a stage 1 Series III V8 safari across Morocco and been stuck for 3 days in dunes in the Sahara when the front diff let go. I even built the engine for Bryan Adams famous 100" land rover as well. More recently I've worked for JLR. I developed the last of the beam axle discos, with the new serpentine V8, i'd helped design and develop the AJ133 engine and 10.5 model year product across all the JLR platforms, and i've consulted on the new defender (and it's replacement ;-) )
And yet, i'm not so blinded by my love of the brand to in anyway be blinkered or biased to the simple fact that times have changed.
Today, JLR can no longer make a basic, low cost, low volume utility vehicle pay for itself, and certainly not support the companies return to profitability through difficult times ahead. You say you think they should have done just that, whilst i suggest that sacrificing the entire company on the basis of some never achievable, rose tinted memory of some 40 year old design, no THAT is the very description of madness.
Caterham Seven annual European sales
2018 116
2017 116
2016 134
2015 107
2014 93
2013 105
2012 151
2011 155
2010 171
2009 94
2008 112
2007 74
2006 75
2005 187
2004 83
2003 74
2002 66
There's no market... why do they bother?
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/ca...
2018 116
2017 116
2016 134
2015 107
2014 93
2013 105
2012 151
2011 155
2010 171
2009 94
2008 112
2007 74
2006 75
2005 187
2004 83
2003 74
2002 66
There's no market... why do they bother?
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/ca...
skyrover said:
Caterham Seven annual European sales
2018 116
2017 116
2016 134
2015 107
2014 93
2013 105
2012 151
2011 155
2010 171
2009 94
2008 112
2007 74
2006 75
2005 187
2004 83
2003 74
2002 66
There's no market... why do they bother?
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/ca...
do you actually, seriously need it explaining? Are you actually that stupid that you can't see the difference between a small company consisting of less that 20 employees who make a niche, ultra low volume product out of a small industrial unit, and a large global scope OEM that employes 10's of thousands of people and builds cars across multiple countries?2018 116
2017 116
2016 134
2015 107
2014 93
2013 105
2012 151
2011 155
2010 171
2009 94
2008 112
2007 74
2006 75
2005 187
2004 83
2003 74
2002 66
There's no market... why do they bother?
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/ca...
Have a go at using your brain, and get back to me.......
A few years ago we had a fleet of Range Rovers and Defenders to use at work. They always and I mean always broke down.
A couple of friends have also had new Range Rovers that not only broke down they could not be fixed, the owners were given new cars as replacements.
How the hell is a company like that still in business, and why do people still buy them?
A couple of friends have also had new Range Rovers that not only broke down they could not be fixed, the owners were given new cars as replacements.
How the hell is a company like that still in business, and why do people still buy them?
Max_Torque said:
do you actually, seriously need it explaining? Are you actually that stupid that you can't see the difference between a small company consisting of less that 20 employees who make a niche, ultra low volume product out of a small industrial unit, and a large global scope OEM that employes 10's of thousands of people and builds cars across multiple countries?
Have a go at using your brain, and get back to me.......
If its profitable, (it is) and sales are consistent (they are) than it is worth building, no matter the size of the market. It also gives the rest of the range credibilityHave a go at using your brain, and get back to me.......
A halo vehicle in other words.
Best 4x4x4 far, that's not a range rover it's a Defender.
mfp4073 said:
A few years ago we had a fleet of Range Rovers and Defenders to use at work. They always and I mean always broke down.
A couple of friends have also had new Range Rovers that not only broke down they could not be fixed, the owners were given new cars as replacements.
How the hell is a company like that still in business, and why do people still buy them?
Around four years ago small independent dealers could pick up Range Rovers at three years old for 20k max. Lovely things, shame to have to agree that there was a reason for this. People still buy them because they look the part (as do the cars) but they are a load of trouble.A couple of friends have also had new Range Rovers that not only broke down they could not be fixed, the owners were given new cars as replacements.
How the hell is a company like that still in business, and why do people still buy them?
skyrover said:
If its profitable, (it is) and sales are consistent (they are) than it is worth building, no matter the size of the market. It also gives the rest of the range credibility
A halo vehicle in other words.
Best 4x4x4 far, that's not a range rover it's a Defender.
JLR has a halo vehicle.A halo vehicle in other words.
Best 4x4x4 far, that's not a range rover it's a Defender.
It's called the L405 Range Rover.
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