RE: Jaguar XE HSE P300 vs Alfa Romeo Giulia Veloce Ti

[ITP]

stuart_83 said:

I went from a Giulia Veloce into a 440i GC for pretty much the same cost (£800 extra in total). Both were heavily discounted. RRPs are irrelevant now.

I get the same (if not better) mpg than the Alfa, and it sounds fantastic.

The Alfa was better to drive, but the BMW beats it in every other measurable way.

Also when I have a minor issue with the BMW I'm not without it for 6 weeks.

So purely as a sports saloon the alfa is still the better car though as it is better to drive?
Also, I suppose you could also substitute the word ‘Alfa’ for ‘ferrari’ or ‘aston’ or ‘lotus’ in the same sentence and it would still be true.....

[Mr Tidy]

ITP said:

stuart_83 said:

I went from a Giulia Veloce into a 440i GC for pretty much the same cost (£800 extra in total). Both were heavily discounted. RRPs are irrelevant now.

I get the same (if not better) mpg than the Alfa, and it sounds fantastic.

The Alfa was better to drive, but the BMW beats it in every other measurable way.

Also when I have a minor issue with the BMW I'm not without it for 6 weeks.

So purely as a sports saloon the alfa is still the better car though as it is better to drive?
Also, I suppose you could also substitute the word ‘Alfa’ for ‘ferrari’ or ‘aston’ or ‘lotus’ in the same sentence and it would still be true.....

Well it might be, but you might never find out if the Alfa apparently goes missing for 6 weeks from time to time so why bother?

[ITP]

Mr Tidy said:

ITP said:

stuart_83 said:

I went from a Giulia Veloce into a 440i GC for pretty much the same cost (£800 extra in total). Both were heavily discounted. RRPs are irrelevant now.

I get the same (if not better) mpg than the Alfa, and it sounds fantastic.

The Alfa was better to drive, but the BMW beats it in every other measurable way.

Also when I have a minor issue with the BMW I'm not without it for 6 weeks.

So purely as a sports saloon the alfa is still the better car though as it is better to drive?
Also, I suppose you could also substitute the word ‘Alfa’ for ‘ferrari’ or ‘aston’ or ‘lotus’ in the same sentence and it would still be true.....

Well it might be, but you might never find out if the Alfa apparently goes missing for 6 weeks from time to time so why bother?

Don’t get me wrong, I like a 6cyl BMW, I’ve had 4 over the years, and 3 V6 Alfa’s.
It is rather frustrating that now alfa have finally beaten BMW for dynamics it has dropped its V6 NA engine to go with it. Plus, the Alfa’s were no less reliable than the BMW’s.

[carparkno1]

Ares said:

carparkno1 said:

Ares said:

dvinell said:

Ares said:

OK - so what (better) 6-cyl car comes in at c£44k?

Kia Stinger GTS ?
Mustang GT ? (8-cyl)
C43 AMG ?

So thats the C43 that starts within a gnats chuff of £50k OTR, before you add a single option
The Mustang that is only 2-door
And a Kia.

So not a huge amount of options then.

BMW 440i. I bought one, and I tested everything.

51k list price, options up to the eyeballs, but dealer/manufacturer discounts took it down to 38k & 0% apr.

You get RWD, the best infotainment layout, massive dealer network, ergonomically a much much better place to sit, and well over 300 bhp from a straight six 3.0 petrol. I drive it every day to work, and then it goes to the Highlands and gets driven hard.

It isn't as good as an M4, and not as fast a Giulia QV, but as an everyday car with a serious turn of pace and a bit of noise, coupled with a ZF8, it is 9/10ths the car I think anyone needs. Certainly as a compromise it beats the Stinger (nobody has bought one), the C43 (too expensive), Mustang (brilliant but 5.0 is huge, compromised in rear space and the overall parts finish).

Love the Giulia to look at mind, it is a stunner in Nero Grey, and a cooking Jag is always good but... 4 cyls. Not for me.

The 440i starts about £500 less than the C43, so still 10% more expensive.....So we are still struggling to find all these direct competing £44k cars that sport 6-cylinders....

(and you realise that the £44k cars in the article can be bought for equally large discounts)

I'm not sure what your point it? The Jag and Alfa are 44k but probably can be had for high 30s, so that's the same as the 440i which is discounted heavier... so they are directly competing in real world prices on the forecourt... they don't get 12k off as they are newer models than the C43/440i.

So, by that comparison, if I had the choice of a 4cyl with somewhere around 300bhp, or a 6cyl with a chunk more, I know where I go.

As a secondary point, the B58 gets 40mpg on a cruise with no effort. I've had it into 44mpg on occasions - most of these 4cyl engines have to work a whole lot harder and probably get the same mpg. They are nice enough cars, but if I have 300bhp + through the rear wheels, I want an engine with a decent capacity and a bit of noise to match it.

[stuart_83]

The Chemist said:

Did you ever consider a QV? I'm still toying with getting one, Im sure it will be an amazing to drive but dont think i can face being inside a similar looking interior.

I did, but my experience with Alfa ownership was really poor. To the point that I rejected the car.

It was bad enough on a £40k car, let alone something worth half of that again.

Wasn't just me either - heard some absolute horror stories from the dealer (who shall rename nameless) about how Alfa UK simply refuse to support their customers and dealers.

As much as I loved the brand, Alfa Romeo are rotten to the core and completely incapable of supporting their products and customers. Couldn't willingly give them a penny going forwards.

Edited by stuart_83 on Thursday 19th September 14:11

[stuart_83]

carparkno1 said:

I'm not sure what your point it? The Jag and Alfa are 44k but probably can be had for high 30s, so that's the same as the 440i which is discounted heavier... so they are directly competing in real world prices on the forecourt... they don't get 12k off as they are newer models than the C43/440i.

So, by that comparison, if I had the choice of a 4cyl with somewhere around 300bhp, or a 6cyl with a chunk more, I know where I go.

As a secondary point, the B58 gets 40mpg on a cruise with no effort. I've had it into 44mpg on occasions - most of these 4cyl engines have to work a whole lot harder and probably get the same mpg. They are nice enough cars, but if I have 300bhp + through the rear wheels, I want an engine with a decent capacity and a bit of noise to match it.

Agreed, what you need now is the MPPSK - had it installed on mine last year.

Takes it up to 360+bhp, 500NM and gives it a more vocal exhaust. All warrantied too.

You'll notice the difference instantly.

[carparkno1]

stuart_83 said:

carparkno1 said:

I'm not sure what your point it? The Jag and Alfa are 44k but probably can be had for high 30s, so that's the same as the 440i which is discounted heavier... so they are directly competing in real world prices on the forecourt... they don't get 12k off as they are newer models than the C43/440i.

So, by that comparison, if I had the choice of a 4cyl with somewhere around 300bhp, or a 6cyl with a chunk more, I know where I go.

As a secondary point, the B58 gets 40mpg on a cruise with no effort. I've had it into 44mpg on occasions - most of these 4cyl engines have to work a whole lot harder and probably get the same mpg. They are nice enough cars, but if I have 300bhp + through the rear wheels, I want an engine with a decent capacity and a bit of noise to match it.

Agreed, what you need now is the MPPSK - had it installed on mine last year.

Takes it up to 360+bhp, 500NM and gives it a more vocal exhaust. All warrantied too.

You'll notice the difference instantly.

Unfortunately it's a late 2018, so MPPSK not available. I can put the standard MPE on for a bit of extra noise which is enough but MPPSK 440is are absolute beasts for sure.


Once the pcp/warranty years are up I will be buying it out and can tinker with it - Akrapovic exhaust is an option.

[dvinell]

carparkno1 said:

BMW 440i. I bought one, and I tested everything.
51k list price, options up to the eyeballs, but dealer/manufacturer discounts took it down to 38k & 0% apr.
You get RWD, the best infotainment layout, massive dealer network, ergonomically a much much better place to sit, and well over 300 bhp from a straight six 3.0 petrol. I drive it every day to work, and then it goes to the Highlands and gets driven hard.
It isn't as good as an M4, and not as fast a Giulia QV, but as an everyday car with a serious turn of pace and a bit of noise, coupled with a ZF8, it is 9/10ths the car I think anyone needs. Certainly as a compromise it beats the Stinger (nobody has bought one), the C43 (too expensive), Mustang (brilliant but 5.0 is huge, compromised in rear space and the overall parts finish).

Love the Giulia to look at mind, it is a stunner in Nero Grey, and a cooking Jag is always good but... 4 cyls. Not for me.

So this is why there are so many BMW's on the road - they are the default choice.
There's nothing wrong with that, but some people want something different, and Stinger is a different compromise.
I've had several random people starting conversations on garage forecourts / car parks relating to the Stinger ... does that ever happen with a 440?

[Ares]

Mr Tidy said:

ITP said:

stuart_83 said:

I went from a Giulia Veloce into a 440i GC for pretty much the same cost (£800 extra in total). Both were heavily discounted. RRPs are irrelevant now.

I get the same (if not better) mpg than the Alfa, and it sounds fantastic.

The Alfa was better to drive, but the BMW beats it in every other measurable way.

Also when I have a minor issue with the BMW I'm not without it for 6 weeks.

So purely as a sports saloon the alfa is still the better car though as it is better to drive?
Also, I suppose you could also substitute the word ‘Alfa’ for ‘ferrari’ or ‘aston’ or ‘lotus’ in the same sentence and it would still be true.....

Well it might be, but you might never find out if the Alfa apparently goes missing for 6 weeks from time to time so why bother?

This 'missing for 6 weeks' is a bit of a misnomer though, especially for a 'minor issue'. The only car I've ever been without for more than 48 hours was a Mercedes, and that was twice, and neither was really a minor issue.

Alfa dealers are ste. Shockingly ste. But the level of spin above that is incredible.

[Ares]

carparkno1 said:

I'm not sure what your point it? The Jag and Alfa are 44k but probably can be had for high 30s, so that's the same as the 440i which is discounted heavier... so they are directly competing in real world prices on the forecourt... they don't get 12k off as they are newer models than the C43/440i.

So, by that comparison, if I had the choice of a 4cyl with somewhere around 300bhp, or a 6cyl with a chunk more, I know where I go.

As a secondary point, the B58 gets 40mpg on a cruise with no effort. I've had it into 44mpg on occasions - most of these 4cyl engines have to work a whole lot harder and probably get the same mpg. They are nice enough cars, but if I have 300bhp + through the rear wheels, I want an engine with a decent capacity and a bit of noise to match it.

The point is the two cars in the above are 330i competitors. The 340/440i is a level above....it is only a short term thing that discounts are so heavy on them as they are near the end of their lifecycle or now obsolete.

The original point was people complaining that the Alfa and Jag were unusual for only having 4-cyl engines...when in fact, there are pretty much no real competitors that don't have 4-cyl engines.

[carparkno1]

dvinell said:

carparkno1 said:

BMW 440i. I bought one, and I tested everything.
51k list price, options up to the eyeballs, but dealer/manufacturer discounts took it down to 38k & 0% apr.
You get RWD, the best infotainment layout, massive dealer network, ergonomically a much much better place to sit, and well over 300 bhp from a straight six 3.0 petrol. I drive it every day to work, and then it goes to the Highlands and gets driven hard.
It isn't as good as an M4, and not as fast a Giulia QV, but as an everyday car with a serious turn of pace and a bit of noise, coupled with a ZF8, it is 9/10ths the car I think anyone needs. Certainly as a compromise it beats the Stinger (nobody has bought one), the C43 (too expensive), Mustang (brilliant but 5.0 is huge, compromised in rear space and the overall parts finish).

Love the Giulia to look at mind, it is a stunner in Nero Grey, and a cooking Jag is always good but... 4 cyls. Not for me.

So this is why there are so many BMW's on the road - they are the default choice.
There's nothing wrong with that, but some people want something different, and Stinger is a different compromise.
I've had several random people starting conversations on garage forecourts / car parks relating to the Stinger ... does that ever happen with a 440?

I got stopped in the Scottish Highlands by someone who was pleased it wasn't a 435d of all places.

I get that the Stinger sticks out more, albeit as you almost never see one. My 440i is a little different (splitter, spoiler, black exhausts etc) but then I just get a nod about how fast "that M4" is and I explain what it is. I don't expect it to sit out, there's a load of F32s at work of all type of engine, I guess I like that it's a Q car.

I wanted something different at the time, a used gransport or 911 etc, but at 40k this ticked every box for my commute/blat requirements with a proven engine.

I'm glad there are lots of other cars out there as an alternative. I really would have gone for an Alfa QV but the horror stories of dealers and issues just put me off. I need the car to work every day, without fail, or be near a dealer in case of trouble.

[stuart_83]

Ares said:

This 'missing for 6 weeks' is a bit of a misnomer though, especially for a 'minor issue'. The only car I've ever been without for more than 48 hours was a Mercedes, and that was twice, and neither was really a minor issue.

Alfa dealers are ste. Shockingly ste. But the level of spin above that is incredible.

It was for a dash rattle initially. Started with two weeks at a dealer, then spiralled into a total farce with Alfa Romeo feeding me bull at every opportunity and refusing to provide me with any timescales / updates.

They then claimed there was no issue with the car, submitting this report to the finance company when I'd had no use of the car for 4-5 weeks at the time, despite their engineer's report and warranty cards stating otherwise. They soon backtracked when they realised I had copies of these.

Absolute corrupt, lying, incompetent bunch of wers.

[The Chemist]

stuart_83 said:

It was for a dash rattle initially. Started with two weeks at a dealer, then spiralled into a total farce with Alfa Romeo feeding me bull at every opportunity and refusing to provide me with any timescales / updates.

They then claimed there was no issue with the car, submitting this report to the finance company when I'd had no use of the car for 4-5 weeks at the time, despite their engineer's report and warranty cards stating otherwise. They soon backtracked when they realised I had copies of these.

Absolute corrupt, lying, incompetent bunch of wers.

Ah mate... I know I've advocated for the Giulia here but my car has had the dash rattle from day 1. I didn't get anywhere with 2 dealerships so in the end gave up. It's an intermittent issue so I didn't push it hard . The other thing was, in the early days of ownership it would randomly go into limp home mode , and in London stop start traffic with all the sensor input? I guess the ECU couldn't handle it and would error lights would light up like a Christmas tree. Touch wood it hasn't had any of these problems in the last 8-9 months or so.

[stuart_83]

Yeah, this was from about 3 or 4 places and really loud. Even the guy from the supplying dealer commented on how awful it sounded when I demonstrated it to him.

I ended up rejecting the car because Alfa just couldn't support me or the car, and was fed up of being fed lies and having no use of the car I was paying for. Figured if they couldn't sort this out then I'd be screwed with a major issue.

Turns out FCA finance also "forgot" to cancel the finance agreement properly so 6 months down the line my credit rating was destroyed. They reported me as defaulting on payments, and showed me as still owing the full amount for the car.

Lovely car and my second Alfa, but I could never buy one again now.

[DP33]

Current face lifted XE interior quality massively improved and demonstrably better than the G20 I poked and prodded today. Genuinely surprising. Alfa is lovely and I really enjoyed the one I borrowed last year but there's work to be done when it comes to fixtures and fittings.

[anonymous-user]

DP33 said:

Current face lifted XE interior quality massively improved and demonstrably better than the G20 I poked and prodded today. Genuinely surprising. Alfa is lovely and I really enjoyed the one I borrowed last year but there's work to be done when it comes to fixtures and fittings.

TBF to Alfa they have at least invested the little budget they were allowed from Fiat to develop a sorted RWD chassis. There's going to be cost cutting somewhere and once you've done the chassis, low emissions engines, nice styling, the interior is where you scrimp a bit - as along as it looks decent enough, which it does.

Think about Audi - money coming out of their arse and they don't give two hoots about handling and are now making interiors less robust as they used to. People buy them because they're German. Deep down, while we want Alfa to succeed, we don't want them turning into Audi were every ahole has one.

[Chestrockwell]

Equilibrium said:

TBF to Alfa they have at least invested the little budget they were allowed from Fiat to develop a sorted RWD chassis. There's going to be cost cutting somewhere and once you've done the chassis, low emissions engines, nice styling, the interior is where you scrimp a bit - as along as it looks decent enough, which it does.

Think about Audi - money coming out of their arse and they don't give two hoots about handling and are now making interiors less robust as they used to. People buy them because they're German. Deep down, while we want Alfa to succeed, we don't want them turning into Audi were every ahole has one.

My brother has the new Audi A6 and while I haven’t spent enough time driving it to judge the interior (it’s miles better than my Civic though), the one thing that baffles me is how slowly the windows go down, it goes down the same speed as my old E46 BMW’s window went down before the motor thingy packed up.

[ITP]

stuart_83 said:

Yeah, this was from about 3 or 4 places and really loud. Even the guy from the supplying dealer commented on how awful it sounded when I demonstrated it to him.

I ended up rejecting the car because Alfa just couldn't support me or the car, and was fed up of being fed lies and having no use of the car I was paying for. Figured if they couldn't sort this out then I'd be screwed with a major issue.

Turns out FCA finance also "forgot" to cancel the finance agreement properly so 6 months down the line my credit rating was destroyed. They reported me as defaulting on payments, and showed me as still owing the full amount for the car.

Lovely car and my second Alfa, but I could never buy one again now.

Don’t blame you after that. Sounds like you got particularly unlucky there. I know 3 people with veloce’s and all their cars have been totally fault free so far.
Buy one out of warranty in the future and you can use the Alfa independents instead, who are generally great, problem solved!

[carparkno1]

ITP said:

stuart_83 said:

Yeah, this was from about 3 or 4 places and really loud. Even the guy from the supplying dealer commented on how awful it sounded when I demonstrated it to him.

I ended up rejecting the car because Alfa just couldn't support me or the car, and was fed up of being fed lies and having no use of the car I was paying for. Figured if they couldn't sort this out then I'd be screwed with a major issue.

Turns out FCA finance also "forgot" to cancel the finance agreement properly so 6 months down the line my credit rating was destroyed. They reported me as defaulting on payments, and showed me as still owing the full amount for the car.

Lovely car and my second Alfa, but I could never buy one again now.

Don’t blame you after that. Sounds like you got particularly unlucky there. I know 3 people with veloce’s and all their cars have been totally fault free so far.
Buy one out of warranty in the future and you can use the Alfa independents instead, who are generally great, problem solved!

I wondered about this. I used to have a 156 (lovely car) and took it to good old fashioned Alfa specialist. With the arrival of the new gen giulia/stelvio are they still equipped to work on them? They feel a lot more germanic in that way of "plug in OBD port job done" and a little less mechanically minded which you had to be to deal with an Alfa.

Maybe it's just me. A used Giulia qv in a few years would definitely be on the menu if my commute stopped.

[Touring442]

The Chemist said:

Ah mate... I know I've advocated for the Giulia here but my car has had the dash rattle from day 1. I didn't get anywhere with 2 dealerships so in the end gave up. It's an intermittent issue so I didn't push it hard . The other thing was, in the early days of ownership it would randomly go into limp home mode , and in London stop start traffic with all the sensor input? I guess the ECU couldn't handle it and would error lights would light up like a Christmas tree. Touch wood it hasn't had any of these problems in the last 8-9 months or so.

The Sytners local to me bought back an F10 M5 in 2017 with the same issue, incurable dash buzz.