RE: McLaren GT | Driven
Discussion
rockin said:
TypeRTim said:
So, yeah, Mclaren are really missing a trick not having a manual option.
It's the old problem with cmoose - anything he doesn't own can't be any good.He keeps telling us McLarens don't live up to his driving god standards yet, strangely, he's been completely unable to say what he would prefer to drive instead.
E65Ross said:
To be fair to him, he has said he'd prefer a Huracan (or atleast he mentioned the V10)....although that's a bit contradictory because I don't think that has a a manual gearbox...? I'd be interested in knowing what GT car he would buy new these days with a manual gearbox. Do any exist?
Seems to be a Porsche guy.The Huracan can't be ordered with a manual as far as i know.
Don't think any of the GT's rivals can either...
Aston DB11...nope
Aston v8...nope (atm)
Mercedes-AMG GT...nope
Bentley Conti...nope
Ferrari Portafino...nope
in fact, can any of the Mclaren lineup's (legitimate) rivals offer a 3 pedal setup now?
Sports Series
Audi R8...nope
Lambo Huracan...nope
Porsche 911...nope
Super Series
Ferrari F8 Tributo...nope
Lamborghini Aventador...nope
Ford GT...nope
Think that covers all bases.
Guvernator said:
Porsche offer a manual and Aston are gearing up to offer it again too.
Not on the basic Carrera or Carrera S, or Carrera 4, or Carrera 4S.Maybe on the GT3.
I read that Aston are eyeing up the possibility of a manual, but it would be an expensive undertaking as they get their current driveline for the V8 from Mercedes-AMG and that v8 is not offered with a manual in any of their line up...
Yep 991.2 GT3 is 'manuel' or PDK S.
Out of 652 UK cars 251 are PDK S and 401 'Manuel'.(of which 43 are Tourings)
So the demand is certainly there and hence 'manuels' were slightly more popular new.
I've had both and currently have a 'manuel'.
Great package and great gearbox.
A McLaren can't come anywhere close to the GT3 in most areas.
That's why I sold my 570S.
It was boring.
Out of 652 UK cars 251 are PDK S and 401 'Manuel'.(of which 43 are Tourings)
So the demand is certainly there and hence 'manuels' were slightly more popular new.
I've had both and currently have a 'manuel'.
Great package and great gearbox.
A McLaren can't come anywhere close to the GT3 in most areas.
That's why I sold my 570S.
It was boring.
br d said:
Why do you keep saying 'manuel'?
Wasn't he the guy in Fawlty TowersEdit: Yep
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_(Fawlty_Tower...
br d said:
Why do you keep saying 'manuel'?
And once again, you're seriously suggesting driving a McLaren hard is boring?
Actually I've just realised, you're one of the bad number plate loonies aren't you?
Trying to hold a rational discussion with you is like juggling custard.
No not 'bad numberplates' .And once again, you're seriously suggesting driving a McLaren hard is boring?
Actually I've just realised, you're one of the bad number plate loonies aren't you?
Trying to hold a rational discussion with you is like juggling custard.
But illegal butchered and mispaced 'vanity plates'.
Huge difference.
One is legal the other is not.
Still, if you wish to condone illegal and criminal activity that is your choice.
I choose not to.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My point was that if you look at all the competition that Mclaren has in the market, they're not unusual in only offering paddle shift gearboxes. In fact, it is really bloody hard to find any modern sports car with a manual gearbox. So, why hold that against them? Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. all have such a strong following because they are ages old brands with heritage and therefore a passionate fan base. Mclaren haven't had the time to cultivate such a loyal international fan base, given they have only been making serial production cars for less than a decade.
With all due respect, Mclaren don't care about second hand values. I don't think any brand does. They get all the money from the initial sale as secondary sales can be made/processed by privateers or independents. Mclaren make no money from sales after the initial sale. To remain profitable, they have to sell cars to recoup R&D costs etc. Best way to do that? Produce them quickly and efficiently and get them through the dealer network.
All cars trade on numbers. It's a fact. The new 911 is more powerful, faster to 60 etc. than the old one. It is objectively better in ever way. There are different market forces at play, namely there isn't the same 'demand' for second hand Mclarens as people don't yearn for them in the same way due to the perceived lack of heritage or 'passion'. Pretty much every review of the 12C and 650S pretty much summed it up by saying, 'its better in every objective way, but it's not a Ferrari'.
TypeRTim said:
They get all the money from the initial sale as secondary sales can be made/processed by privateers or independents. Mclaren make no money from sales after the initial sale.
I don't think you know very much about the car industry.The official dealer networks are highly dependent upon,
- used car sales, and
- parts and service
Either way, it's 100% in the manufacturer's interest to have a healthy used business through the dealerships. You can't sell cars at all unless there's a decent network of after-sales support and you need the dealerships to have access to an immediate supply of parts, whether in stock or by courier.
For the dealerships, profit on a used car may be at least as big as their profit on a new car.
What's more, the manufacturer will be offering vital "bonus" payments based on the dealership achieving various targets, not just selling new cars.
TypeRTim said:
There are different market forces at play, namely there isn't the same 'demand' for second hand Mclarens as people don't yearn for them in the same way
It's nothing to do with 'yearning.'There is only a finite demand for any car and because the supply of new Mclarens is high, especially for a relatively expensive car, and the pipeline for new but similar models appears unlimited, these are major contributing factors to the freefall type depreciation ££ which affects the brand particularly more so than their competitors.
TypeRTim said:
With all due respect, Mclaren don't care about second hand values. I don't think any brand does.
Aside from that already mentioned above, high depreciation means financing and leasing is less competitive, all else being equal, than competitors and discounting becomes more prevalent. Neither are good for manufacturers and it's something they do consider, although it's not something that can be easily or directly influenced.rockin said:
I don't think you know very much about the car industry.
The official dealer networks are highly dependent upon,
Either way, it's 100% in the manufacturer's interest to have a healthy used business through the dealerships. You can't sell cars at all unless there's a decent network of after-sales support and you need the dealerships to have access to an immediate supply of parts, whether in stock or by courier.
For the dealerships, profit on a used car may be at least as big as their profit on a new car.
What's more, the manufacturer will be offering vital "bonus" payments based on the dealership achieving various targets, not just selling new cars.
My understanding is indeed limited, but this is how i see it.The official dealer networks are highly dependent upon,
- used car sales, and
- parts and service
Either way, it's 100% in the manufacturer's interest to have a healthy used business through the dealerships. You can't sell cars at all unless there's a decent network of after-sales support and you need the dealerships to have access to an immediate supply of parts, whether in stock or by courier.
For the dealerships, profit on a used car may be at least as big as their profit on a new car.
What's more, the manufacturer will be offering vital "bonus" payments based on the dealership achieving various targets, not just selling new cars.
The dealers aren't necessarily owned by the manufacturer directly though, are they? Quite a lot are probably franchised. The franchise will pay a license to the manufacturer to trade their wares. The franchise then keeps the proceeds from any sales activity minus the license fee. Mclaren Automotive as a company does not see a return directly on each used car sale through it's franchised dealer network, only the license fee. That is, if they are using the franchise model.
Even if not, Mclaren Retail would be a separate entity to Mclaren Automotive (with separate budgets, operating costs etc.). Of course, it is of top priority to get the most money for any car they sell, which is why a used car for sale from a Mclaren dealer would probably be more expensive than say a 3rd party specialist re-seller.
Eventually every car will leave the dealer network though, either via private sale or sale via an out of network dealership. At which point, the value of that car has no bearing to Mclaren Automotive as they don't get any return on out-of-network sales. Albeit, sellers out of network could undercut the network price. Which may be what they are experiencing due to the small nature of their official network in relation to other manufacturers. If a third party reseller is lowering the cost of a car on their books to get it gone, why would you pay over the odds at a Mclaren Dealership?
Anyway, any product is only 'worth' what people are willing to pay for it. As long as they are perceived to be less desirable than alternatives, they will be 'worth' less. Mclaren can't really do much about that, other than continue to improve the quality of new products leaving the factory. But as everyone keeps pointing out, that lowers the perceived value of existing products. Painful cycle.
But, for a manufacturer who has been putting out products that are of the standard they have been for less than 10 years, i would say they are doing remarkably well.
rockin said:
This is the motor industry, not the fast food business.
Like I said:TypeRTim said:
My understanding is indeed limited,
If the franchise model differs between sectors then please point out where it differs for the car industry.Would be a right pain in the posterior to distribute all of the various percentage takes that all of the various manufacturers would demand of the sale of their used cars from your dealership. Because even though the franchise for new car sales is limited to a specific manufacturer to whom they would pay the license fee, they are not limited in which used cars they can sell. Otherwise they would never be able to take on a part-ex from another brand without having a dealership of that brand in the network to farm that off to, surely?.
If someone part-exchanged a Ferrari for a Mclaren at a Mclaren dealer, would Mclaren then have to pay Ferrari a percentage of what they would sell that Ferrari for? Do Ferrari care how much the Mclaren dealer sell that Ferrari for? The Mclaren dealer only has to sell it above the price they paid for it plus any costs involved in making it saleable in order to turn a profit on the transaction, no? Do those profits get kept by the franchise holder or do they have to be returned to Mclaren Automotive?
Yes there are incentives offered by Mclaren Automotive to their Retailers to shift more product, but the dealers/franchise themselves will set their own targets for used products as the margins and markets are different.
This is why i am saying Mclaren Automotive don't necessarily care about the second/third/fourth sale transactions. Mclaren Retail do. It would be like asking who cares more about the value of the car at second sale of, say, a Ford Fiesta bought from an Allen Ford dealership? Ford UK or Allen Ford? I would argue that Ford UK doesn't really care, they have the value of the car realised during the first sale. Ford UK don't have much to gain by that car re-entering the franchised network. Allen Ford do, as they get to make a mark-up on whatever they sell the car for. If a consumer chooses to sell the car privately instead, do Ford UK care how much they sell it for?
Or am i being too black and white about this?
TypeRTim said:
Even if not, Mclaren Retail would be a separate entity to Mclaren Automotive (with separate budgets, operating costs etc.).
This is irrelevant, manufacturer's are often made up of multiple legal entities - R&D, manufacturing, distribution, dealer network, aftermarket, financial services. etc. It's the board's and CEO's job to make sure they work together.TypeRTim said:
Eventually every car will leave the dealer network though, either via private sale or sale via an out of network dealership. At which point, the value of that car has no bearing to Mclaren Automotive as they don't get any return on out-of-network sales.
Parts sales continue for a long time, they are more profitable and viable if the vehicles retain sufficient value to keep them on the road. More importantly at this price point of limited volumes and special editions, there is brand equity and revenue to be earned by keeping owners of older cars as customers hence BMW Classic, Mercedes-Benz Classic, Lamborghini Polo Storico, ditto Porsche, Ferrari, JLR. Again, strong residuals make this more profitable and viable.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff