RE: INEOS confirms Grenadier for reveal in 2020
Discussion
RacerMike said:
It’s yet another example of people completely misunderstanding the complexities of the automotive industry.
Wether it be regulations or the competition (the Italian Bugatti project ended because of huge pressure and boycot) this venture must be knowing what they are doing... Good luck.EvoOlli said:
Found that:
https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-automotive/...
But MBTech has been sold to a french company AKKA in the meantime....
Daimler sold 65% of MBtech to Akka in 2011, and the rest in 2018, by when the company was renamed.https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-automotive/...
But MBTech has been sold to a french company AKKA in the meantime....
dinkel said:
RacerMike said:
It’s yet another example of people completely misunderstanding the complexities of the automotive industry.
Wether it be regulations or the competition (the Italian Bugatti project ended because of huge pressure and boycot) this venture must be knowing what they are doing... Good luck.Jimbo89 said:
People citing things like the Land Cruiser 70 series need to have a good look at the reviews in the ones where they're still for sale, they've been updated over the years and were a hell of a lot more comfortable and modern inside than a Defender to begin with. They're also massive, which is why they never really took off with the UK farmer brigade.
I'm not sure the 70 or any pickup versions were ever sold in the UK, there was a squared-off SWB thing but that wasn't a proper 70. Come the late-80s to 90s there were loads of Hi Luxes around, invariably blue with the occasional red, they certainly took off and eat some of the 90/110/Defender's lunch.Max_Torque said:
Lord.Vader said:
You seem to know a lot about business, can i ask how many $50B+ global businesses you have successfully started and ran?
I am pretty sure that Ratcliffe has a better understanding of commercial business than you do and he employs people like you to bother with the technical details.
None.I am pretty sure that Ratcliffe has a better understanding of commercial business than you do and he employs people like you to bother with the technical details.
Now ask me how many highly successful vehicles i have designed, developed and brought to market over the last 30 years.
That's the difference, i know my arse from my elbow when it comes to actually delivering a viable automotive product. :-)
I industrialise aircraft, I wouldn’t dream of assuming a viable industrialisation plan from the above.
WestyCarl said:
I can't see any Org taking an unproven car from a new manufacturer into the 3rd world.
I applaude the idea but this will be a 40k "toy" for people, maybe a few UK org's such as RNLI or Mountian rescue will order a few . In EU regulations (and lack of real demand) have killed the days of producing a simple car which can be fixed by the owner. If you want one of these get a kit car.
I still think Tata missed a trick by not making a cheap simplified of the Defender in India for the 3rd world. I guess it was down to economics.
It was used to be as simple as hiring a few dozen Romainian hookers in Geneva and sending a few speedboats and jet skis in the post and hey presto, they bought what you were selling. I’m shocked to hear that these organisations have moved away from such an efficient system!!I applaude the idea but this will be a 40k "toy" for people, maybe a few UK org's such as RNLI or Mountian rescue will order a few . In EU regulations (and lack of real demand) have killed the days of producing a simple car which can be fixed by the owner. If you want one of these get a kit car.
I still think Tata missed a trick by not making a cheap simplified of the Defender in India for the 3rd world. I guess it was down to economics.
WestyCarl said:
....
I still think Tata missed a trick by not making a cheap simplified of the Defender in India for the 3rd world. I guess it was down to economics.
20+ years ago I worked for a US manufacturer that wanted to build an ultra basic (no ABS/Airbags etc..) pickup for south america/africa/asia. In the end the project was binned because they were accused of trying to 'export deadly products to the third world'. I still think Tata missed a trick by not making a cheap simplified of the Defender in India for the 3rd world. I guess it was down to economics.
DonkeyApple said:
It was used to be as simple as hiring a few dozen Romainian hookers in Geneva and sending a few speedboats and jet skis in the post and hey presto, they bought what you were selling. I’m shocked to hear that these organisations have moved away from such an efficient system!!
I happen to be in charge of vehicle procurement for a large african nation. If anyone from Grenadier is reading you can pick me up from GVA next week.Max_Torque said:
None.
Now ask me how many highly successful vehicles i have designed, developed and brought to market over the last 30 years.
That's the difference, i know my arse from my elbow when it comes to actually delivering a viable automotive product. :-)
Nobody doubts your engineering nous (well maybe 300bhp Now ask me how many highly successful vehicles i have designed, developed and brought to market over the last 30 years.
That's the difference, i know my arse from my elbow when it comes to actually delivering a viable automotive product. :-)
) but it doesn't sound like you've developed the sales and marketing plans or PR strategies.It is fashionable to knock these departments and present them as the bad guys stopping the heroic engineers from doing their job. On many occasions this may have been true but there are also cases where the sales and marketing teams have helped save a product or even a company through clever positioning and pricing strategies (somebody gave the example of Apple earlier which is spot on).
Ultimately car companies survive by selling profitable cars that people want.
This does not always tally with what engineers want to make.
It was not the engineers at Porsche pushing to make SUV's... but here we are with the company in rude health still making superb sports cars.
So, engineering a great car and jumping through all the hoops for type approval to bring it to make etc. is only part of the process.
Marketing & PR have a significant role to play.
For example, the 10-15% price delta from competitive cars which you sight as a major error is not necessarily the problem you think it is.
After all, price is just another expression of value. If you identify the right customers and help them see that value, the problem goes away.
This latest release may raise more questions than it answers to an experienced engineer like yourself but to most people it will present an easily digestible update (if over-simplified to an experienced industry insider).
Basically, it's not worth getting too worked up by this release as we simply don't know the details.
And we won't know the details for some time yet.
Speculate by all means but don't be fooled into thinking you know the full picture.
Well, not yet anyway.
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 19th September 16:15
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 19th September 16:15
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 19th September 16:16
Maldini35 said:
Nobody doubts your engineering nous (well maybe 300bhp ) but it doesn't sound like you've developed the sales and marketing plans or PR strategies.
It is fashionable to knock these departments and present them as the bad guys stopping the heroic engineers from doing their job. On many occasions this may have been true but there are also cases where the sales and marketing teams have helped save a product or even a company through clever positioning and pricing strategies (somebody gave the example of Apple earlier which is spot on).
Ultimately car companies survive by selling profitable cars that people want.
This does not always tally with what engineers want to make.
It was not the engineers at Porsche pushing to make SUV's... but here we are with the company in rude health still making superb sports cars.
So, engineering a great car and jumping through all the hoops for type approval to bring it to make etc. is only part of the process.
Marketing & PR have a significant role to play.
For example, the 10-15% price delta from competitive cars which you sight as a major error is not necessarily the problem you think it is.
After all, price is just another expression of value. If you identify the right customers and help them see that value, the problem goes away.
This latest release may raise more questions than it answers to an experienced engineer like yourself but to most people it will present an easily digestible update (if over-simplified to an experienced industry insider).
Basically, it's not worth getting too worked up by this release as we simply don't know the details.
And we won't know the details for some time yet.
Speculate by all means but don't be fooled into thinking you know the full picture.
Well, not yet anyway.
Sounds like you're maybe speaking from a position of inside knowledge maybe? ) but it doesn't sound like you've developed the sales and marketing plans or PR strategies.It is fashionable to knock these departments and present them as the bad guys stopping the heroic engineers from doing their job. On many occasions this may have been true but there are also cases where the sales and marketing teams have helped save a product or even a company through clever positioning and pricing strategies (somebody gave the example of Apple earlier which is spot on).
Ultimately car companies survive by selling profitable cars that people want.
This does not always tally with what engineers want to make.
It was not the engineers at Porsche pushing to make SUV's... but here we are with the company in rude health still making superb sports cars.
So, engineering a great car and jumping through all the hoops for type approval to bring it to make etc. is only part of the process.
Marketing & PR have a significant role to play.
For example, the 10-15% price delta from competitive cars which you sight as a major error is not necessarily the problem you think it is.
After all, price is just another expression of value. If you identify the right customers and help them see that value, the problem goes away.
This latest release may raise more questions than it answers to an experienced engineer like yourself but to most people it will present an easily digestible update (if over-simplified to an experienced industry insider).
Basically, it's not worth getting too worked up by this release as we simply don't know the details.
And we won't know the details for some time yet.
Speculate by all means but don't be fooled into thinking you know the full picture.
Well, not yet anyway.
Either way, I think actually the points Max was trying to make actually agree with your statement. And I'd agree with them too. I'm an attribute engineer (so I deal in 'feeling' and opinion which proper engineers absolutely hate), but I still see plenty I work with make the same short sighted comments about 'what do sales and marketing know' or 'why would you spend money on that cr@p'. However, in this instance, surely the issue Max has (and I do to some extent) is that it's missing exactly this. The idea behind a 'back to basics and workman like' Defender copy is an Engineers wet dream. Sod the marketing, it'll speak for itself!
From my perspective at least, I don't feel like it's had enough thought put into how or where it fits in the market!
RacerMike said:
From my perspective at least, I don't feel like it's had enough thought put into how or where it fits in the market!
I agree it all feels a bit sketchy at the moment.But I don’t think we can write them off or jump to too many conclusions based on the PR output so far (however tempting).
Maybe Max will be proved right but it would be staggering if they hadn’t thought through the issues he raised.
Then again, perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised by anything...
I’ve no involvement with Ineos but I do wish them well.
Maldini35 said:
RacerMike said:
From my perspective at least, I don't feel like it's had enough thought put into how or where it fits in the market!
I agree it all feels a bit sketchy at the moment.But I don’t think we can write them off or jump to too many conclusions based on the PR output so far (however tempting).
Maybe Max will be proved right but it would be staggering if they hadn’t thought through the issues he raised.
Then again, perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised by anything...
I’ve no involvement with Ineos but I do wish them well.
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