RE: INEOS confirms Grenadier for reveal in 2020

[InitialDave]

Max_Torque said:

Actually, if you want to sell a car in the US or Europe you can't! The certification standard requires you to be able to ensure that a vehicle is only fitted with electronic control units containing the same code (or an approved later release of the code) that the car was homologated with. This is to ensure in-use emissions compliance. As a result, all modern control units are coded to the cars VIN, and generally will be automatically updated by the manufacturers dealer network diagnostics systems automatically (or via over-air updates for very modern cars like Teslas etc).

I took them to be saying that you would have access to the level of software to handle this stuff without needing a dealer visit. So if I have an engine approved to version 35 of some standard, and I put in a fuel pump that meets version 33 upwards, you can run the software yourself to confirm it's compatible.

[anonymous-user]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Well go you!

You realise that all that is standard fair. You don't need a code to tell you that your engine is misfiring, just listen / feel it. Wanna know which cylinder, spit on the exhaust manifold runners till you find the cold one. Coil or injector? disconnect / swap see if fault moves.. No code reader required, just common sense.

BTW the MIL for misfire is an OBD requirement and it flashes during any misfire that would result in the tailpipe emissions limits exceeding 150% of nominal.


So,lets say your code throws up a DPF error? How you gonna fix that with your hammer? Or what about a HP fuel pump fault? Rail pressure sensor? Low pressure EGR non plausable signal? Module checksum error? CAN bus default to one wire mode? Adaptive trim excessive error lean? Non plausible engine torque request? Gearbox adaptive pressure error.? Driver demand arbitration rejected? Turbocharger vane control excessive range and amplitude?

there are several thousands fault codes in a modern car. I see main dealers with full access to OE level training, documentation and SWAT teams still fail to diagnose common faults, to expect the general public to do that is simply ridiculous.

And as i said. I'm a busy builder, i bought my Grenadier on my business, when it breaks, how do i find time to fix it? I want to take it to a local dealer, pic up my courtesy Truck (vehicle is in warranty) and leave it to them. I haven't got time or money to spend attempting to fix it myself.

[anonymous-user]

powerstroke said:

The thing is its not the engine that's modern its the electronics and the bits that make it comply with emission laws
strip off the DPF EGR SCR VNT its the same as it was in the early 2000's so engineering it to make it simple is
quite straight forward if you are selling to a market requiring simplicity provided the emissions requirement is also simple !!
if it's going to Europe ,north america ,Australia it needs the full job lot of emissions junk and the high tech ECU and associated sensors... mind I'm sure the ECU could be made more user friendly if they wanted too , so maybe Ineos OBD could work .

So now they have to engineer and certify at least two variants........

And BMW don't make any engines still from the early 2000's


And no it's not just the electronics that allow a modern derv to make good power, economy and emissions. It's baked into the actual design of the engine. From ultra high injection pressures through precision injector nozzles, from precision designed ports, valves and valve train components that allow ultra precise mechanical tolerances, to ultra high strength blocks, cranks, and pistons that survive massive cylinder pressures and thermal loading, via highly engineered boosting and aftertreatment systems, trick on-demand support systems such as variable oil and water pumps. Yes, modern control electronics allow those parts to function at maximum efficiency, but the parts themselves are the crux of the engineering!

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 18th September 23:13

[anonymous-user]

maffski said:

Veblen good

Which precisely defines the new defender. A car specifically engineered to appeal to the affluent "lifestyle" audience, people who can afford to buy and expensive vehicle because they "want one".


It does not in anyway apply to a commercial vehicle, that uses 35 year old tech, and yet costs 15% more than it's completion, has no pedigree what-so-ever and has no dealer network.


The reason toyota sell lots of Land Cruisers is twofold:

1) They are proven reliable

2) You can buy one, and get one fixed pretty much anywhere. Spares, knowledge, and support are already in place worldwide

[powerstroke]

Max_Torque said:

InitialDave said:

, but you can avoid things like what should be fungible components having to be coded/authorised via dealer-only software to fix what is, frankly, a minor fault.

Actually, if you want to sell a car in the US or Europe you can't! The certification standard requires you to be able to ensure that a vehicle is only fitted with electronic control units containing the same code (or an approved later release of the code) that the car was homologated with. This is to ensure in-use emissions compliance. As a result, all modern control units are coded to the cars VIN, and generally will be automatically updated by the manufacturers dealer network diagnostics systems automatically (or via over-air updates for very modern cars like Teslas etc).

Good point .. and on that basis if Ineos wanted too they could have remote diagnostics like most of the major makes do now where
the dealer laptop communicates directly with the factory .. most things are possible so some bod in Stuttgart could tell mr jones he needs say a new EGT sensor ,if that was what Ineos wanted to happen a customer could have an app on his phone mind You would think they would want support the dealer networks profitability !!! so Mr Jones will have to book in to have his leg lifted if there is trouble like most other marques ...

[powerstroke]

Max_Torque said:

powerstroke said:

The thing is its not the engine that's modern its the electronics and the bits that make it comply with emission laws
strip off the DPF EGR SCR VNT its the same as it was in the early 2000's so engineering it to make it simple is
quite straight forward if you are selling to a market requiring simplicity provided the emissions requirement is also simple !!
if it's going to Europe ,north america ,Australia it needs the full job lot of emissions junk and the high tech ECU and associated sensors... mind I'm sure the ECU could be made more user friendly if they wanted too , so maybe Ineos OBD could work .

So now they have to engineer and certify at least two variants........

maybe more !!Toyota do everything from Euro 3 to 6 + in the hilux the current model is sold in africa with just an oxidising catalyst
the one we get here has DPF and SCR etc .. same engine differing only on added bits ..

[anonymous-user]

powerstroke said:

Max_Torque said:

InitialDave said:

, but you can avoid things like what should be fungible components having to be coded/authorised via dealer-only software to fix what is, frankly, a minor fault.

Actually, if you want to sell a car in the US or Europe you can't! The certification standard requires you to be able to ensure that a vehicle is only fitted with electronic control units containing the same code (or an approved later release of the code) that the car was homologated with. This is to ensure in-use emissions compliance. As a result, all modern control units are coded to the cars VIN, and generally will be automatically updated by the manufacturers dealer network diagnostics systems automatically (or via over-air updates for very modern cars like Teslas etc).

Good point .. and on that basis if Ineos wanted too they could have remote diagnostics like most of the major makes do now where
the dealer laptop communicates directly with the factory .. most things are possible so some bod in Stuttgart could tell mr jones he needs say a new EGT sensor ,if that was what Ineos wanted to happen a customer could have an app on his phone mind You would think they would want support the dealer networks profitability !!! so Mr Jones will have to book in to have his leg lifted if there is trouble like most other marques ...

I thought i could fix it with a hammer? Now it seems i need an smart phone, a suitable app, with an internet connection, some sort of factory account to validate my credentials, and my cars has to also be wireless internet connected!

:-)

[powerstroke]

Max_Torque said:

powerstroke said:

The thing is its not the engine that's modern its the electronics and the bits that make it comply with emission laws
strip off the DPF EGR SCR VNT its the same as it was in the early 2000's so engineering it to make it simple is
quite straight forward if you are selling to a market requiring simplicity provided the emissions requirement is also simple !!
if it's going to Europe ,north america ,Australia it needs the full job lot of emissions junk and the high tech ECU and associated sensors... mind I'm sure the ECU could be made more user friendly if they wanted too , so maybe Ineos OBD could work .

So now they have to engineer and certify at least two variants........

And BMW don't make any engines still from the early 2000's


And no it's not just the electronics that allow a modern derv to make good power, economy and emissions. It's baked into the actual design of the engine. From ultra high injection pressures through precision injector nozzles, from precision designed ports, valves and valve train components that allow ultra precise mechanical tolerances, to ultra high strength blocks, cranks, and pistons that survive massive cylinder pressures and thermal loading, via highly engineered boosting and aftertreatment systems, trick on-demand support systems such as variable oil and water pumps. Yes, modern control electronics allow those parts to function at maximum efficiency, but the parts themselves are the crux of the engineering!

Edited by Max_Torque on Wednesday 18th September 23:13

Yes but its still going to be backward compatible if you want to make it simpler for less demanding emissions , much easier than making an old engine reach a higher standard hence Toyota use their latest GD engine with different add ons for emissions depending on the market...

[Bodo]

Max_Torque said:

powerstroke said:

Max_Torque said:

InitialDave said:

, but you can avoid things like what should be fungible components having to be coded/authorised via dealer-only software to fix what is, frankly, a minor fault.

Actually, if you want to sell a car in the US or Europe you can't! The certification standard requires you to be able to ensure that a vehicle is only fitted with electronic control units containing the same code (or an approved later release of the code) that the car was homologated with. This is to ensure in-use emissions compliance. As a result, all modern control units are coded to the cars VIN, and generally will be automatically updated by the manufacturers dealer network diagnostics systems automatically (or via over-air updates for very modern cars like Teslas etc).

Good point .. and on that basis if Ineos wanted too they could have remote diagnostics like most of the major makes do now where
the dealer laptop communicates directly with the factory .. most things are possible so some bod in Stuttgart could tell mr jones he needs say a new EGT sensor ,if that was what Ineos wanted to happen a customer could have an app on his phone mind You would think they would want support the dealer networks profitability !!! so Mr Jones will have to book in to have his leg lifted if there is trouble like most other marques ...

I thought i could fix it with a hammer? Now it seems i need an smart phone, a suitable app, with an internet connection, some sort of factory account to validate my credentials, and my cars has to also be wireless internet connected!

:-)

That would then be "A 21st century hammer" that INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann meant, with article further describing it as empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own.

No other hammers were promised.

[anonymous-user]

powerstroke said:

maybe more !!Toyota do everything from Euro 3 to 6 + in the hilux the current model is sold in africa with just an oxidising catalyst
the one we get here has DPF and SCR etc .. same engine differing only on added bits ..

Toyota have a wee bit more cash to throw around though!

And it's worth noting that full size landcruiser worldwide sales have taken a nose dive recently. Pressure on things like emissions and fuel economy have resulting in customers downsizing. Last year they only sold 2,200 cars in the US and Canada and 7,000 cars in Europe. Chinese sales collapsed post 2017 to a couple of hundred units. Australia and the UAE are currently the largest market for the Land cruiser, with around 18,000 vehicles and 30,000 respectively.

[powerstroke]

Max_Torque said:

I thought i could fix it with a hammer? Now it seems i need an smart phone, a suitable app, with an internet connection, some sort of factory account to validate my credentials, and my cars has to also be wireless internet connected!

:-)

So what !! even the poorest african has a smartphone !! a bluetooth dongle that plugs into a standard OBD plug are pennies
so no reason whatsoever apart from lost revenue that the customer could get the information if that was INEOS's wish and selling point ..

[anonymous-user]

Bodo said:

hat would then be "A 21st century hammer" that INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann meant, with article further describing it as empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own.

No other hammers were promised.

;-)


I'm sorry, but i'm entirely unconvinced owners want to be "empowered" to fix their own car themselves? I mean, realistically, ignoring a few PHers, no one is going to do this right?

[NomduJour]

powerstroke said:

So what !! even the poorest african has a smartphone !! a bluetooth dongle that plugs into a standard OBD plug are pennies

You need to post that on one of the Defender threads.

[Bodo]

Max_Torque said:

Bodo said:

hat would then be "A 21st century hammer" that INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann meant, with article further describing it as empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own.

No other hammers were promised.

;-)


I'm sorry, but i'm entirely unconvinced owners want to be "empowered" to fix their own car themselves? I mean, realistically, ignoring a few PHers, no one is going to do this right?

Exactly. It's an option. Nobody is forced to do anything with that. I can't even imagine a disadvantage for prospective buyers of that.

[Fittster]

Lord Marylebone said:

Simonium said:

Never trust anyone who believes jeans, brogues, and blazer is acceptable apparel.

You are extremely strange.

What on earth do you deem acceptable clothing for a man?

I often wear jeans, shoes, a shirt and a jacket/blazer, as do many people who like to put a tiny bit of effort into casual attire.

I can only assume you don't get invited anywhere that requires shoes or a blazer.

Jeans and brogues, you'd really wear that?

[diddy_p]

If only this guy didn't campaign so hard for brexit, if we remained in the EU there wouldn't be any need for the Portuguese facility and all the actual manufacturing and assembly could have been done in Wales, since the product would be of EU origin and meet a bunch of reciprocal standards worldwide... (Takes cover ..)

[InitialDave]

Max_Torque said:

I'm sorry, but i'm entirely unconvinced owners want to be "empowered" to fix their own car themselves? I mean, realistically, ignoring a few PHers, no one is going to do this right?

If things are set up so you can fix it yourself (if you have the inclination/capability), then more importantly, things are set up so anyone can. That means any garage/mechanic of your choice, irrespective of where you are.

Whether they can achive it is an entirely different boiling vessel of sealife, but the intent is one I'm a fan of.

[ducnick]

I strongly suspect this is a high media impact project to focus more attention on hydrogen fuel cell power. That makes the choice of 3 litre bmw power much more understandable. Bmw could well be benefitted too by partnering with such a big producer of hydrogen..... it would be like Tesla partnering with national grid.
In this context it makes perfect sense to go into the commercial vehicle market. Ie vehicles that can be refuelled from apparatus at a company depot. Somewhere Ineos can deliver gas cylinders to regularly as this is the problem currently. Hydrogen isn’t available from filling stations yet so not an ideal fuel for the private user at this time. EV only works as you can charge at home overnight.
Expect a van to follow, with exactly the same bmw hydrogen power train in something that looks like a transit.
This could be genuinely disruptive.

Edited by ducnick on Thursday 19th September 03:05

[Sandpit Steve]

ducnick said:

I strongly suspect this is a high media impact project to focus more attention on hydrogen fuel cell power. That makes the choice of 3 litre bmw power much more understandable. Bmw could well be benefitted too by partnering with such a big producer of hydrogen..... it would be like Tesla partnering with national grid.
In this context it makes perfect sense to go into the commercial vehicle market. Ie vehicles that can be refuelled from apparatus at a company depot. Somewhere Ineos can deliver gas cylinders to regularly as this is the problem currently. Hydrogen isn’t available from filling stations yet so not an ideal fuel for the private user at this time. EV only works as you can charge at home overnight.
Expect a van to follow, with exactly the same bmw hydrogen power train in something that looks like a transit.
This could be genuinely disruptive.

Edited by ducnick on Thursday 19th September 03:05

That’s a very interesting take on it.

As others have said, Sir Jim hasn’t got where he has by being naïve, and this could well be an attempt to get ahead of what others are doing with respect to hydrogen power, at a time when most of the manufacturers focus is on EV technology.

In large parts of the world, certainly in developing markets, there’s not going to be an electric charging infrastructure in place for decades to come, so there’s a market opportunity to use hydrogen-powered vehicles to replace petrol and diesel in the medium term.

[ducnick]

I bet the board meeting didn’t start with “how can we provider farmers with a new Land Rover?” And instead started with “how do we increase profits? Well we could sell more of this hydrogen stuff we make. But there’s no more market boss... let’s make a market then!”