RE: Focus ST vs. Golf TCR vs. Megane Trophy vs. i30 N

[anonymous-user]

STeve-ST said:

life long ford fan but do feel the brand has lost its way somewhat caring more for those across the pond than those of us in the uk

In what way? The Americans don't even get the mk4 Focus or Fiesta anymore.

[csampo]

s m said:

Hmm, exactly the result I’d have forecasted given there was no Civic in the test based on the reviews I’ve seen so far - especially since the review is closely tied to the Autocar one

I was going to point to this too. There's no doubt from the tests that the Civic is the best drivers car in class, however ultimately the looks of the Civic put me off as it's just too much for a daily for my tastes. It is also a lot more expensive on finance (even at max permitted deposit) due to very limited discounts and high APR.

[gutbobs]

I do have to wonder if the sandwiches weren't very good on the Mégane launch event. It seems that we've more moved on from the four wheel steering being unpredictable to it being a negative that you have to put a bit of effort into making it go fast.

As an owner i have to say I like the 4ws and I also like the fact the effort = reward.

[nickfrog]

csampo said:

There's no doubt from the tests that the Civic is the best drivers car in class

It's a brilliant package. But it depends what you're after. For me the Megane is a better drivers car, particularly on track. This illustrates why. https://youtu.be/mAcLedCLYkQ

[s m]

csampo said:

s m said:

Hmm, exactly the result I’d have forecasted given there was no Civic in the test based on the reviews I’ve seen so far - especially since the review is closely tied to the Autocar one

I was going to point to this too. There's no doubt from the tests that the Civic is the best drivers car in class, however ultimately the looks of the Civic put me off as it's just too much for a daily for my tastes. It is also a lot more expensive on finance (even at max permitted deposit) due to very limited discounts and high APR.

Yep, not exactly a surprise - no Civic present, Ford decision

[Onehp]

Repent said:

Great article! Really solid decision to leave the Type R out and leave the rest to make their mark before meeting the generational kingpin.

Front wheel hatchbacks are so capable now and have been for some time, and have managed to dial up the fun increasingly. A comment on a recent thread from
someone frequenting European fun runs in GT3’s and the like was that a wide range of cars from considerably above the Porsche down to hot hatches it was consistently the latter that were driven the fastest. That level of confidence their platforms provide, less concern exploring the limits on public roads and less cash to lose must add up, as someone who’s always dreamed of getting a GT3 and is now close to being able to do so I wonder which is more fun more of the time.

Edited by Repent on Saturday 28th September 08:32

Go try get a good drive in one. I rented a 458 and drove in the Italian alps and while it was great, it also cured me of wanting anything like it. Once I got over the engine, it confirmed my prejudice that basically a lighter car is more fun, and the dismissing returns of going from 250hp/tonne in my hot estate to 333hp/tonnes on the road.

And indeed, with a hot hatch/estate, you always bring this potential with you, less of an occasion, yes, but much more opportunity to enjoy a good road itself.

And as you pointed out, most considerations on how much to push on lie with the external circumstances, not within the car ownership itself.

I know a few with a GT3 and the likes that frequent the Nordschleife often... In their hot hatch

[NJH]

There are all kinds of issues embedded in such a decision.

One often overlooked is how much of an event will the car will be when driven at 80% to at most 90%?

This is important as all of these cars are now way too fast to be fully exploited on public roads, is the very occasional few seconds chucking it round a roundabout or blasting flat out down a clear stretch of road going to deliver the thrills you expect?

Then if you track a car the usability, reliability and costs associated become more important than which car is slightly faster on a 1 lap sprint. Here the Hyundai puts in a really strong case for itself.

For many they have been right round this problem and decided they wanted a car that was exciting to drive at normalish speeds for the occasional drive out. It's why old 911s got so expensive so incredibly fast long before the 'investment' bandwagon. Its also why Lotus's hold their value so incredibly well.

GT3 was for some a tipping point, just a bit too much on the road and very expensive to run hard on track.

[Don Roque]

Initforthemoney said:

Of course the Focus won.

That's the result Ford had paid for!

The omission of the Civic Type R from the test makes it easier for PH to justify this paid result.

[s m]

gutbobs said:

I do have to wonder if the sandwiches weren't very good on the Mégane launch event.

Some might say they spent the press bribery budget on the Alpine......

[Don Roque]

s m said:

Some might say they spent the press bribery budget on the Alpine......

They probably forgot to give the PH journo the customary free tote bag.

[jl4069]

CABC said:

Journos have to enthuse about new cars, it's their business. most modern reviews have an enlightened statement tucked away somewhere hinting at today's problem, here it was "The relative lightness - it has 100kg on the Focus - bestows upon it an agility that doesn't require chassis trickery to create".

True. This little bit of ill-logic aside, I dare say Mr. Bird has been listening to my criticisms of car journalists. A very nice article, highly detailed. It was like reading evo from the early 2000's or Fast Lane from the early 90's. Good job and here's to continuing along this path; people pay attention to detailed and well thought out reviews. Its been long overdue. j

[simonbamg]

got to be the golf

[cidered77]

SidewaysSi said:

Elatino1 said:

SidewaysSi said:

FN2TypeR said:

Four great cars, what a time to be alive if you're in the hot hatch buying market at the moment!

I'd take the Hyundai, out of these four, but I wouldn't blame you for choosing one of the others instead - brilliant stuff.

Time to be alive? Really?! They are capable for sure but they aren't nearly as engaging as something older IME.

You can't compare them to an old car, an old car is old, this is a new car review.

Which of these cars have you driven and what older 5 door hatches are you comparing them to?

Edited by Elatino1 on Saturday 28th September 09:39

Was in reference to the post above. I have driven them all (Golf wasn't the TCR) bar the Focus. And had extensive time in the Civic R on track. Hyundai also on track.

Lots of variety these days but don't confuse with being an engaging car, particularly on road. An older Meg, Clio, DC2, 306 etc would kill these for on road fun.

But appreciate they don't have infotainment, safety etc. Not that we care about that sort of junk.

Yeesss, and when those cars came out another old bloke would be saying these new fangled 306s, Meganes, etc aren’t as good as the R5 Turbo, 206 1.9, etc.

Because old things.

These are all very capable cars, as others have pointed out no massive difference in price inflation adjusted, and relatively now much more affordable due to “creatively” now in how we buy cars and low interest rates. I ran an R26 Megane for 5 years ... have no doubt I wound enjoy a Trophy more (well, maybe: that ride sounds a pain day to day).

And you can even insure them now, unlike the “good old days” that never were.

[CABC]

cidered77 said:

unlike the “good old days” that never were.

you're partly right, people do romanticise some of the past and resist change.
however, progress is complicated and the curves of "fun" and "technology" have diverged significantly over the last 25yrs thanks to H&S and comfort. we now have the 'best' cars ever as they're faster, safer, more comfortable and tech-laden. and cheaper too. but the engineers can't defy physics, and the fun is less with so much weight.
If the engineers were let loose to design a sports car or hatch to maximise involvement they'd produce the best sports car of all time, no doubt. But their remit has changed. And hence we have the Tesla, great tech but not my idea of fun.

Anyone who enjoys a spirited drive on a twisty road and owns a Lotus, 6 pot Cayster, MX5, older CTR, Clio (up to 200), is probably thinking of keeping them for good.

[nickfrog]

CABC said:

cidered77 said:

unlike the “good old days” that never were.

you're partly right, people do romanticise some of the past and resist change.
however, progress is complicated and the curves of "fun" and "technology" have diverged significantly over the last 25yrs thanks to H&S and comfort. we now have the 'best' cars ever as they're faster, safer, more comfortable and tech-laden. and cheaper too. but the engineers can't defy physics, and the fun is less with so much weight.
If the engineers were let loose to design a sports car or hatch to maximise involvement they'd produce the best sports car of all time, no doubt. But their remit has changed. And hence we have the Tesla, great tech but not my idea of fun.

Anyone who enjoys a spirited drive on a twisty road and owns a Lotus, 6 pot Cayster, MX5, older CTR, Clio (up to 200), is probably thinking of keeping them for good.

Really interesting conversation and while I agree we are missing out on inherent involvment due to added mass, it is for me more than compensated by the fun extracted out of driving those cars on fantastic tracks (I really don't enjoy road driving) which older cars where generally not as good at despite their lower weight, as many performance cars now come with far more rigid platforms, far better kinematics, far better brakes and diffs. Physics defying stuff in my experience.

The only exception I can think of is the DC2 / DC5.

[G0ldfysh]

I have tried the Fiesta ST and it was a bundle of laughs to drive felt like a hot hatch.
Tried the Focus ST (Estate admittedly and without the performance pack) and it felt like a fast car but not a hot hatch as such too sensible and didn't have the same energy as the Fiesta

Has anyone compared the two and does the estate dull the Focus that much or was it the missing Performance Pack, yet to arrange time to go back to dealer to compare?

[SidewaysSi]

CABC said:

cidered77 said:

unlike the “good old days” that never were.

you're partly right, people do romanticise some of the past and resist change.
however, progress is complicated and the curves of "fun" and "technology" have diverged significantly over the last 25yrs thanks to H&S and comfort. we now have the 'best' cars ever as they're faster, safer, more comfortable and tech-laden. and cheaper too. but the engineers can't defy physics, and the fun is less with so much weight.
If the engineers were let loose to design a sports car or hatch to maximise involvement they'd produce the best sports car of all time, no doubt. But their remit has changed. And hence we have the Tesla, great tech but not my idea of fun.

Anyone who enjoys a spirited drive on a twisty road and owns a Lotus, 6 pot Cayster, MX5, older CTR, Clio (up to 200), is probably thinking of keeping them for good.

Cars are stunningly capable now. Really superb in most ways. However we can't say that engineers have been able to be let off the leash because they just can't.

Rose tinted specs and all that? Not really as many of us have older cars so can drive a new one back to back with an older one so it's not my memory playing dirty buggers with me..

Why is it I spanked a brand new £115k 992 Porsche around a circuit for a couple of hours recently and it left no impression on me? I actually enjoyed my drive to the circuit in one of my old nails more. Same with the Hyundai I30N. God that's a dull thing.

Quite sad really.

[CrippsCorner]

It'd be the Golf for me, as an old-skooler it can only be a 3 door for a hot hatch for me! I understand I'm a dying breed though

Out of the others they've all got their pros but in all honesty it's the Hyundai that interests me the most.

[Terminator X]

I really like the i30N, had a few of them on track at Bedford recently and they certainly go well for what is essentially a fast ish road car.

TX.

[s m]

I’m still interested to see the workings out for the Golf’s quoted 100kg weight advantage over the Focus?
Seeing as both cars tested were 5-door models