RE: Focus ST vs. Golf TCR vs. Megane Trophy vs. i30 N
Discussion
CABC said:
cidered77 said:
unlike the “good old days” that never were.
however, progress is complicated and the curves of "fun" and "technology" have diverged significantly over the last 25yrs thanks to H&S and comfort. we now have the 'best' cars ever as they're faster, safer, more comfortable and tech-laden. and cheaper too. but the engineers can't defy physics, and the fun is less with so much weight.
If the engineers were let loose to design a sports car or hatch to maximise involvement they'd produce the best sports car of all time, no doubt. But their remit has changed. And hence we have the Tesla, great tech but not my idea of fun.
Anyone who enjoys a spirited drive on a twisty road and owns a Lotus, 6 pot Cayster, MX5, older CTR, Clio (up to 200), is probably thinking of keeping them for good.
But... but ... I am still going to decide between a Mk3 Megane Trophy with Ohlins or a new Mk4 Trophy when new car time comes up next year. Not because the MX5 isn’t so much fun, but because it’s noisy, uncomfortable, there is no air con, the interior is all nasty plastic, and the stereo is crap. With a modern car , all the safety, all the infotainment which does matter even if we pretend it doesn’t ... *and* the benefit of years’ more chassis technology that does a good job of handling still more weight. Plus let’s face it, there is a lot to be said for just bring objectively fast..
Not sure these cars will exist forever .... the cooking variants hardly sell at all now (when did anyone last see a normal Megane ?!); should be celebrated rather than looking backwards ...
SidewaysSi said:
Why is it I spanked a brand new £115k 992 Porsche around a circuit for a couple of hours recently and it left no impression on me? I actually enjoyed my drive to the circuit in one of my old nails more. Same with the Hyundai I30N. God that's a dull thing.
Quite sad really.
Because people like different things?Quite sad really.
I quite like the i30N personally. I've not driven one, but I've looked at them and they appeal more than the Focus.
Surprising how similar the i30N and Focus look on the inside, but I suppose such is the recipe for modern cars.
The Megané looks ungainly from the outside, but the interior shot really would put me off. If it weren't for the lovely seats, that interior doesn't have much going for it. The portrait infotainment screen looks strange, too.
If it were my money it would be between the i30N and Golf. I loved my GTD, everything just felt so solid and it was very practical. But there's a huge margin in price here - unless you start considering modern finance, which bridges that gap...
The Megané looks ungainly from the outside, but the interior shot really would put me off. If it weren't for the lovely seats, that interior doesn't have much going for it. The portrait infotainment screen looks strange, too.
If it were my money it would be between the i30N and Golf. I loved my GTD, everything just felt so solid and it was very practical. But there's a huge margin in price here - unless you start considering modern finance, which bridges that gap...
C.A.R. said:
The Megané looks ungainly from the outside
Probably subjective as I find it's the best looking of the lot by quite a margin, well at least in the flesh. The flared wings to accommodate the wider tracks in particular work really well, again that can only be fully appreciated in the flesh. nickfrog said:
Really interesting conversation and while I agree we are missing out on inherent involvment due to added mass, it is for me more than compensated by the fun extracted out of driving those cars on fantastic tracks (I really don't enjoy road driving) which older cars where generally not as good at despite their lower weight, as many performance cars now come with far more rigid platforms, far better kinematics, far better brakes and diffs. Physics defying stuff in my experience.
The only exception I can think of is the DC2 / DC5.
i agree. so no one car can do the job.The only exception I can think of is the DC2 / DC5.
older cars are great for the road, where brakes and rigidity are less important but lightness is. there are great roads out there, but you have to be dedicated to seek them out at the right time! i do find most modern hatches 'too capable' for real fun on b roads.
for uk tracks i'd still go for the older style of car - lighter, more nimble. diffs and stiffness easily added.
for the ring or Spa i can see a GT3 coming alive. much faster speeds than nearly all uk tracks.
A good RS could cover all bases quite well, but i guess you know that
It sounds like this new ST is a quality car (and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that) but it used to be the Golf GTI that occupied the subtle (if you liked it) or bland (if you didn’t) space in these tests. In no world could I see anyone referring to this generation of ST as a “Ford ASBO”.
Mike1990 said:
There isn’t a ‘bad’ hot-hatch on sale these days, they’re all so-so good, but i just can’t get excited! and i’am a die-hard hot-hatch enthusiast. I’am pining over the older stuff at the moment.
275 Trophy-R for 25k anyone.
That is *exactly* what I’m thinking ... especially as worker out over the weekend it also has inertia belts (can’t really live day to day with harnesses). 275 Trophy-R for 25k anyone.
Not many issues with weight with one of those ...
Interesting discussion on this thread and a point for those thinking the modern hot hatches are too heavy, is that they've been heavy for quite a while. As I recall, the Mk2 Meg R26 F1 230 came in at around 1355KG, meaning the current gen is 75-100KG heavier at most... even the 275 Trophy R isn't really that much of a lightweight compared to the really old stuff, around the 1275-1300KG mark if memory serves me correct.
Anyway, I see the current hot hatches as occupying the sort of ground that used to be taken by the Impreza Turbo, EVO 6 and the like. If you want a smaller, "more fun" drive, you have the Fiesta ST, Mini Cooper JCW type cars. If they're still too fast, then you can get a Suzuki Swift Sport, or Fiesta ST Line ecoboost type thing...
There really is a huge choice these days IMO and its a very good time to be buying a hot/warm hatch.
Anyway, I see the current hot hatches as occupying the sort of ground that used to be taken by the Impreza Turbo, EVO 6 and the like. If you want a smaller, "more fun" drive, you have the Fiesta ST, Mini Cooper JCW type cars. If they're still too fast, then you can get a Suzuki Swift Sport, or Fiesta ST Line ecoboost type thing...
There really is a huge choice these days IMO and its a very good time to be buying a hot/warm hatch.
greenarrow said:
Interesting discussion on this thread and a point for those thinking the modern hot hatches are too heavy, is that they've been heavy for quite a while. As I recall, the Mk2 Meg R26 F1 230 came in at around 1355KG, meaning the current gen is 75-100KG heavier at most... even the 275 Trophy R isn't really that much of a lightweight compared to the really old stuff, around the 1275-1300KG mark if memory serves me correct.
Anyway, I see the current hot hatches as occupying the sort of ground that used to be taken by the Impreza Turbo, EVO 6 and the like. If you want a smaller, "more fun" drive, you have the Fiesta ST, Mini Cooper JCW type cars. If they're still too fast, then you can get a Suzuki Swift Sport, or Fiesta ST Line ecoboost type thing...
There really is a huge choice these days IMO and its a very good time to be buying a hot/warm hatch.
Anyway, I see the current hot hatches as occupying the sort of ground that used to be taken by the Impreza Turbo, EVO 6 and the like. If you want a smaller, "more fun" drive, you have the Fiesta ST, Mini Cooper JCW type cars. If they're still too fast, then you can get a Suzuki Swift Sport, or Fiesta ST Line ecoboost type thing...
There really is a huge choice these days IMO and its a very good time to be buying a hot/warm hatch.
nickfrog said:
Probably subjective as I find it's the best looking of the lot by quite a margin, well at least in the flesh. The flared wings to accommodate the wider tracks in particular work really well, again that can only be fully appreciated in the flesh.
Agree, the other cars look so dull compared to the Megane. I think if I was in the market for a 5 door hatch right now it would be up there, over the others and the Civic. But the smarter choice would be to just buy one of these, or the 280 variant with a less crashy ride, for about £15k or so when they are 18-24 months old and let some other mug take the hit.I saw my first Mk4 Meg RS in the flesh last week, it came past me popping and banging and I thought looked the business in its orange hue.
So another vote from me to the Megane as being the best looker on this lot, closely followed by the i30N, in blue...
I still don't think the MK4 Focus is a looker and the Golf, well its just a Golf.
Not sure who is running Ford styling these days, but they should be sacked. IMO each generation of Focus has got successively blander, although the facelifted Mk3 wasn't too bad in ST or ST-Line kit. However, whenever I see a tidy Mk1 Focus, I keep thinking what a smart looking car it is, even after all these years.
Zarco said:
Care to elaborate?
The Megane Trophy comes with more power and torque, lighter 19 inch wheels, improved / lighter brakes, a really good dual valve exhaust, lightweight lithium battery, and is cup chassis with diff and RS Monitor as standard. Its lighter than the 280.It has a Trophy sticker (which actually adds weight) and a few interior touches in Alcantara.
It will most definitely come with better residuals too (albeit in a French hot hatch you are just minimising severe losses).
It’s definitely a reasonable improvement over the 280, reading any of the reviews will tell you that, and on a pcp was only a few £ more per month, so is really a no-brainer.
nickfrog said:
csampo said:
There's no doubt from the tests that the Civic is the best drivers car in class
It's a brilliant package. But it depends what you're after. For me the Megane is a better drivers car, particularly on track. This illustrates why. https://youtu.be/mAcLedCLYkQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ9mFuqdOZ0
Derek Chevalier said:
Sutcliffe disagrees. I haven't driven the current gen Megane so can't comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ9mFuqdOZ0
That's probably why I said "for me". It's pretty subjective. The way the Civic is set up, ie more conservatively where understeer is more prominent makes it less appealing for me as a driver, particularly on track. But it remains an excellent package. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ9mFuqdOZ0
CraigV6 said:
It’s definitely a reasonable improvement over the 280, reading any of the reviews will tell you that, and on a pcp was only a few £ more per month, so is really a no-brainer.
It was a no brainer indeed. For me the Trophy is a downgrade for track use compared to the 280 Cup with the wrong wheel size and expensive replacement disks. The difference in weight is very modest too at 18kgs. Discounts on cash were more substantial on a 280 than on a Trophy so that should smooth the blow on depreciation. For such a track capable daily, PCP seems a bit strange as you can't track it. Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 3rd October 10:15
Dave Hedgehog said:
WTF circa 35k for a basic hot hatch ...
The worlds gone mad
Perhaps you need to Google the word "inflation".The worlds gone mad
CABC said:
Journos have to enthuse about new cars, it's their business. most modern reviews have an enlightened statement tucked away somewhere hinting at today's problem, here it was "The relative lightness - it has 100kg on the Focus - bestows upon it an agility that doesn't require chassis trickery to create".
An odd comment. This website often enthuses about older cars more than new ones. However, when they are reviewing a new car, surely it's sensible to compare it to other new cars? This site is supposed to help people choose cars. Many people buying new cars don't give a damn about older ones.STeve-ST said:
life long ford fan but do feel the brand has lost its way somewhat caring more for those across the pond than those of us in the uk
The MK4 Focus and MK8 Fiesta aren't sold in North America.nickfrog said:
CraigV6 said:
It’s definitely a reasonable improvement over the 280, reading any of the reviews will tell you that, and on a pcp was only a few £ more per month, so is really a no-brainer.
It was a no brainer indeed. For me the Trophy is a downgrade for track use compared to the 280 Cup with the wrong wheel size and expensive replacement disks. The difference in weight is very modest too at 18kgs. Discounts on cash were more substantial on a 280 than on a Trophy so that should smooth the blow on depreciation. For such a track capable daily, PCP seems a bit strange as you can't track it. Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 3rd October 10:15
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