Honest John and Left Foot Braking?

Honest John and Left Foot Braking?

Author
Discussion

DoubleD

9,533 posts

55 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
You don't seem to understand that unless you can prove something with data then its a theory at best. Some of the reasons/theorys/arguments given on the thread to support lfb a modern auto are laughable at best, some a little more believable but none have been studied and proven by any organisation who can endorse the results of a proper study.

I spend my career demonstrating to people in various business that what they think about how their own business works is usually not true, then they use the data to improve their business and make more profit and usually sell the business.

What we have discovered really on this thread is that people who have experience of doing it do it, other people that don't do it, THINK they can do it perfectly under pressure and that its ok to put other people at risk while they learn.
Time how long it takes to move your foot from the accelerator to the brake. There you go, data.

Obviously this presumes that a left foot braker is covering the brake.
Not again.....its pretty obvious to even the hardest of thinking that certainly when learning, and probably forever unless you have access to some great facilities( or train very hard) that your dominant leg ( in the majority of cases the right leg ) will have better reaction times than the less dominant leg, especially when pressing a pedal specifically positioned for being pressed by the right leg......
So you can move your foot from the accelerator, to the brake, and then press it, quicker than just pressing the brake with your other foot?

Mercky

556 posts

82 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
Wot about left foot breaking?
Excruciating!

DoubleD

9,533 posts

55 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
fido said:
DoubleD said:
How is it potentially dangerous?

What risk is it introducing?
Unsuitable pedal placement and lack of racing harness will mean you don’t have a leg to brace or steady yourself if your left leg is moved across to cover or activate the brake pedal. That’s one at least ..
I can't say that I have ever felt the need to brace myself with my left leg.

But to be fair im a right foot braker.

NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
. I LFB because I can play with the balance of my car - what data do you want on that?

.
We already established that's a valid reason IF you are skilled enough, this thread was about lfb an auto just because, not to go faster, not for performance reasons etc

I'd challenge if many modern cars at all can be LFB for balance because all the ones i've tried for a good many years now cut the throttle when the brake is applied in an on throttle situation.

I'm sorry to disagree, as a physics student in the distant past my view and probably the view of most physicists is that you can put numbers to absolutely everything to try and validate or invalidate a theory. To be honest that's how most complex mathametics has been developed.


NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
You don't seem to understand that unless you can prove something with data then its a theory at best. Some of the reasons/theorys/arguments given on the thread to support lfb a modern auto are laughable at best, some a little more believable but none have been studied and proven by any organisation who can endorse the results of a proper study.

I spend my career demonstrating to people in various business that what they think about how their own business works is usually not true, then they use the data to improve their business and make more profit and usually sell the business.

What we have discovered really on this thread is that people who have experience of doing it do it, other people that don't do it, THINK they can do it perfectly under pressure and that its ok to put other people at risk while they learn.
Time how long it takes to move your foot from the accelerator to the brake. There you go, data.

Obviously this presumes that a left foot braker is covering the brake.
Not again.....its pretty obvious to even the hardest of thinking that certainly when learning, and probably forever unless you have access to some great facilities( or train very hard) that your dominant leg ( in the majority of cases the right leg ) will have better reaction times than the less dominant leg, especially when pressing a pedal specifically positioned for being pressed by the right leg......
So you can move your foot from the accelerator, to the brake, and then press it, quicker than just pressing the brake with your other foot?
Probably yes, and almost certainly have better control than someone trying to learn lfb. However, without any data collected under controlled conditions who knows for sure.

The idea that people are lfb because they drive with their left foot hovering over the brake pedal 100% of the time because they can stop more quickly is frankly laughable. It would be excruciatingly uncomfortable for a start.



NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
fido said:
DoubleD said:
How is it potentially dangerous?

What risk is it introducing?
Unsuitable pedal placement and lack of racing harness will mean you don’t have a leg to brace or steady yourself if your left leg is moved across to cover or activate the brake pedal. That’s one at least ..
I can't say that I have ever felt the need to brace myself with my left leg.

But to be fair im a right foot braker.
You almost certainly don't drive round with it lifted in the air though, so you are braced by default if your foot is on the floor or rest.

SidewaysSi

5,957 posts

181 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
NewUsername said:
SidewaysSi said:
. I LFB because I can play with the balance of my car - what data do you want on that?

.
We already established that's a valid reason IF you are skilled enough, this thread was about lfb an auto just because, not to go faster, not for performance reasons etc

I'd challenge if many modern cars at all can be LFB for balance because all the ones i've tried for a good many years now cut the throttle when the brake is applied in an on throttle situation.

I'm sorry to disagree, as a physics student in the distant past my view and probably the view of most physicists is that you can put numbers to absolutely everything to try and validate or invalidate a theory. To be honest that's how most complex mathametics has been developed.
Is your name Eric by any chance?

DoubleD

9,533 posts

55 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
You don't seem to understand that unless you can prove something with data then its a theory at best. Some of the reasons/theorys/arguments given on the thread to support lfb a modern auto are laughable at best, some a little more believable but none have been studied and proven by any organisation who can endorse the results of a proper study.

I spend my career demonstrating to people in various business that what they think about how their own business works is usually not true, then they use the data to improve their business and make more profit and usually sell the business.

What we have discovered really on this thread is that people who have experience of doing it do it, other people that don't do it, THINK they can do it perfectly under pressure and that its ok to put other people at risk while they learn.
Time how long it takes to move your foot from the accelerator to the brake. There you go, data.

Obviously this presumes that a left foot braker is covering the brake.
Not again.....its pretty obvious to even the hardest of thinking that certainly when learning, and probably forever unless you have access to some great facilities( or train very hard) that your dominant leg ( in the majority of cases the right leg ) will have better reaction times than the less dominant leg, especially when pressing a pedal specifically positioned for being pressed by the right leg......
So you can move your foot from the accelerator, to the brake, and then press it, quicker than just pressing the brake with your other foot?
Probably yes, and almost certainly have better control than someone trying to learn lfb. However, without any data collected under controlled conditions who knows for sure.

The idea that people are lfb because they drive with their left foot hovering over the brake pedal 100% of the time because they can stop more quickly is frankly laughable. It would be excruciatingly uncomfortable for a start.
Yep, lack of data either way so who knows

NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
You don't seem to understand that unless you can prove something with data then its a theory at best. Some of the reasons/theorys/arguments given on the thread to support lfb a modern auto are laughable at best, some a little more believable but none have been studied and proven by any organisation who can endorse the results of a proper study.

I spend my career demonstrating to people in various business that what they think about how their own business works is usually not true, then they use the data to improve their business and make more profit and usually sell the business.

What we have discovered really on this thread is that people who have experience of doing it do it, other people that don't do it, THINK they can do it perfectly under pressure and that its ok to put other people at risk while they learn.
Time how long it takes to move your foot from the accelerator to the brake. There you go, data.

Obviously this presumes that a left foot braker is covering the brake.
Not again.....its pretty obvious to even the hardest of thinking that certainly when learning, and probably forever unless you have access to some great facilities( or train very hard) that your dominant leg ( in the majority of cases the right leg ) will have better reaction times than the less dominant leg, especially when pressing a pedal specifically positioned for being pressed by the right leg......
So you can move your foot from the accelerator, to the brake, and then press it, quicker than just pressing the brake with your other foot?
Probably yes, and almost certainly have better control than someone trying to learn lfb. However, without any data collected under controlled conditions who knows for sure.

The idea that people are lfb because they drive with their left foot hovering over the brake pedal 100% of the time because they can stop more quickly is frankly laughable. It would be excruciatingly uncomfortable for a start.
Yep, lack of data either way so who knows
So you cant give it as a solid reason to LFB ;-) which was my point

DoubleD

9,533 posts

55 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
NewUsername said:
So you cant give it as a solid reason to LFB ;-) which was my point
And you cant say that its not a good thing to do either.

NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
So you cant give it as a solid reason to LFB ;-) which was my point
And you cant say that its not a good thing to do either.
Given its rfb that is taught and de facto i don't really have to, its already the norm...... given you've already said you rfb you're arguing pretty hard to advocate something you dont actually do.

I can talk from some experience. FYI i've lfb in track cars for over 20 years and drive circa 30k road miles a year and on occasion in the past i've used lfb in road cars, i'm early 40's so i've racked up a fair bit of miles and experience.
I don't have anything against LFB per se but my point all along in this thread is i consider it potentially dangerous for the inexperienced to decide they'd like to start lfb and then try to learn on public roads from scratch because when they start and for a good while after their control of their left leg wont be anywhere near as good as their right and they will have to think harder to do it, not good in an emergency/high stress situation.

If you honestly think the general driving public should be told its ok to go and try lfb and you think they'll be as safe or safer then i think you're a bit mad.

NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
NewUsername said:
SidewaysSi said:
. I LFB because I can play with the balance of my car - what data do you want on that?

.
We already established that's a valid reason IF you are skilled enough, this thread was about lfb an auto just because, not to go faster, not for performance reasons etc

I'd challenge if many modern cars at all can be LFB for balance because all the ones i've tried for a good many years now cut the throttle when the brake is applied in an on throttle situation.

I'm sorry to disagree, as a physics student in the distant past my view and probably the view of most physicists is that you can put numbers to absolutely everything to try and validate or invalidate a theory. To be honest that's how most complex mathametics has been developed.
Is your name Eric by any chance?
That's insulting. Eric is a tool

DoubleD

9,533 posts

55 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
NewUsername said:
DoubleD said:
NewUsername said:
So you cant give it as a solid reason to LFB ;-) which was my point
And you cant say that its not a good thing to do either.
Given its rfb that is taught and de facto i don't really have to, its already the norm...... given you've already said you rfb you're arguing pretty hard to advocate something you dont actually do.

I can talk from some experience. FYI i've lfb in track cars for over 20 years and drive circa 30k road miles a year and on occasion in the past i've used lfb in road cars, i'm early 40's so i've racked up a fair bit of miles and experience.
I don't have anything against LFB per se but my point all along in this thread is i consider it potentially dangerous for the inexperienced to decide they'd like to start lfb and then try to learn on public roads from scratch because when they start and for a good while after their control of their left leg wont be anywhere near as good as their right and they will have to think harder to do it, not good in an emergency/high stress situation.

If you honestly think the general driving public should be told its ok to go and try lfb and you think they'll be as safe or safer then i think you're a bit mad.
Have you got the data to back that up?

Graveworm

2,634 posts

18 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
And you cant say that its not a good thing to do either.
According to my car manufacturer it increases stopping distance and can damage systems. If you drive multiple or hire cars that means finding this out for each car and remembering it.

JimSuperSix

3,125 posts

190 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
someone said:
So you can move your foot from the accelerator, to the brake, and then press it, quicker than just pressing the brake with your other foot?
NewUsername said:
Probably yes
rofl

I'd like to see how you can move your foot over faster than I can just start pressing the pedal....ah right, you can't can you. Ironically you have no data to back up your assertions either....

Seeing as the pro rally instructor recommends LFB even on the normal roads, I think I'll follow his advice in preference to yours thanks. Your argument is weak and all over the place, much like your left leg I suspect...

Edited by JimSuperSix on Wednesday 9th October 19:54

NewUsername

292 posts

3 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
someone said:
So you can move your foot from the accelerator, to the brake, and then press it, quicker than just pressing the brake with your other foot?
NewUsername said:
Probably yes
rofl

I'd like to see how you can move your foot over faster than I can just start pressing the pedal....ah right, you can't can you. Ironically you have no data to back up your assertions either....

Seeing as the pro rally instructor recommends LFB even on the normal roads, I think I'll follow his advice in preference to yours thanks.
As I said above rfb is the de facto norm, you have no data\studies to prove deviating from the norm will allow you to brake more safely

I'm sure he recommends it to novices who've never tried it lololol, if you're skilled at it then yes i'd recommend using it too, for its intended purpose though, not for braking an auto that wont let you throttle and brake simultaneously anyway.

So i'll take that over your hastily googled 'advice' thanks

Paul_M3

1,357 posts

132 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
DoubleD said:
And you cant say that its not a good thing to do either.
According to my car manufacturer it increases stopping distance and can damage systems. If you drive multiple or hire cars that means finding this out for each car and remembering it.
That only makes ANY sense if they are talking about deliberately (or accidentally) pressing both pedals at once. That’s clearly not what the majority of people in this thread are talking about.

Simply using your left foot to brake couldn’t possibly cause those things, could it.

Graveworm

2,634 posts

18 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
rofl

I'd like to see how you can move your foot over faster than I can just start pressing the pedal....ah right, you can't can you. Ironically you have no data to back up your assertions either....

Seeing as the pro rally instructor recommends LFB even on the normal roads, I think I'll follow his advice in preference to yours thanks. Your argument is weak and all over the place, much like your left leg I suspect...

Edited by JimSuperSix on Wednesday 9th October 19:54
But when not covering the brake or when the right foot would be covering the brake, which together are the majority of times, what if its slower! The rally driver was LFB in a manual which may have other benefits and is something many people do.

In this long thread, everything has been covered - Its probably faster, if it doesn't damage things, when the foot is covering the pedal when the right would not have been. It's probably slower when it isn't. Either side refusing to accept there are advantages or disadvantages to their method is pretty blinkered. Making an informed choice is not easy.


Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 9th October 20:10

JimSuperSix

3,125 posts

190 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
NewUsername said:
if you're skilled at it then yes i'd recommend using it too
Finally, progress smile

Graveworm

2,634 posts

18 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Paul_M3 said:
That only makes ANY sense if they are talking about deliberately (or accidentally) pressing both pedals at once. That’s clearly not what the majority of people in this thread are talking about.

Simply using your left foot to brake couldn’t possibly cause those things, could it.
I have LFB many times over many years it's nearly impossible not to overlap slightly, especially as I learnt on a manual where you were doing exactly that. I would find it very hard to be sure that I wasn't overlapping.