Honest John and Left Foot Braking?

Honest John and Left Foot Braking?

Author
Discussion

JimSuperSix

3,069 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th October
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thiscocks said:
JimSuperSix said:
Seeing as the pro rally instructor recommends LFB even on the normal roads, I think I'll follow his advice in preference to yours thanks. Your argument is weak and all over the place, much like your left leg I suspect...

Edited by JimSuperSix on Wednesday 9th October 19:54
Which 'pro rally instructor' are we talking about? Not the american retard in one of the youtube links in the BMW I hope?

Plenty of rally drivers don't lfb in rally cars and I bet most would never recommend it in a road car.
"American retard" and "I bet...". Solid argument there, well done.

SidewaysSi

5,788 posts

180 months

Thursday 10th October
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I am an incredible driver and tell all my students to LFB.

Taylor James

617 posts

7 months

Thursday 10th October
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InitialDave said:
JimSuperSix said:
It's very simple - travelling at the same speed, same driver etc.., you will stop quicker if you can LFB and are covering the brake.
I don't eally disagree. It's just I'm probably not, because I don't find it a very comfortable position to maintain.
Surely no lfb can drive everywhere covering the brake? For a start if would be uncomfortable and you'd also be likely to ride the brake or trigger the brake lights.

If we go with that pretty reasonable assumption, then the advantage comes when a lfb is covering the brake and a rfb isn't.

Trouble is, that assumes the rfb has inferior hazard perception. Why wouldn't the rfb be off the gas and covering the brake at the same time as the lfb?

And finally, as someone mentioned much earlier in the thread, if your reactions are bad, it won't matter if you're covering the brake with your left foot. Someone right foot braking with a better reaction time than a lfb will stop quicker.

Any possible advantages in everyday driving are highly debatable and marginal at best. It's tbe equivalent of arguing that you should only drive on tyres with (insert your optimum number here) mm of tread as anything less will mean a tiny reduction in stopping distances, etc. Or checking your tyre pressures before every journey.

Lfb is just a preference, nothing more or less. It's certainly not an 'advanced' or difficult thing to do (except in terms of while learning it which is the same as any skill). In fact, it's the opposite and I can see why it might be a good technique to teach people who struggle to do more than one thing with one foot, novices who are obviously a bit hamfisted and old people who like things simple.

JimSuperSix

3,069 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Taylor James said:
Any possible advantages in everyday driving are highly debatable and marginal at best.
In your opinion, but anyone who LFBs daily knows exactly what the advantages are, and expert drivers agree.

Paul_M3

1,329 posts

131 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Taylor James said:
Trouble is, that assumes the rfb has inferior hazard perception. Why wouldn't the rfb be off the gas and covering the brake at the same time as the lfb?
No it doesn't assume that at all. This has been discussed / explained multiple times.

The rfb can't cover the brake AND maintain speed.

Here's a simple real life example - You're driving past a school at kicking out time. The road is lined with young kids and parents for several hundred metres. Both lfb and rfb observe the hazard and slow down to 20 mph. The hazard is present for much longer than a few seconds, so the rfb will be back on the accelerator to maintain 20 mph.

The lfb also has to get back on the accelerator, but keeps their left foot over the brake should one of kids suddenly chase their ball into the road. Once past all of the kids, they'd move their left foot back to the dead pedal.

InitialDave

5,629 posts

65 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Yes, left foot covering the pedal in those kind of specific scenarios can be of benefit, but it's not the same as covering the pedal all the time - and the decision to cover the pedal is based on recognising the potential hazard that could develop.

I think it's the lack of that which is the problem with most drivers, not reaction times or which foot they'd brake with.

JimSuperSix

3,069 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Paul_M3 said:
Taylor James said:
Trouble is, that assumes the rfb has inferior hazard perception. Why wouldn't the rfb be off the gas and covering the brake at the same time as the lfb?
No it doesn't assume that at all. This has been discussed / explained multiple times.

The rfb can't cover the brake AND maintain speed.

Here's a simple real life example - You're driving past a school at kicking out time. The road is lined with young kids and parents for several hundred metres. Both lfb and rfb observe the hazard and slow down to 20 mph. The hazard is present for much longer than a few seconds, so the rfb will be back on the accelerator to maintain 20 mph.

The lfb also has to get back on the accelerator, but keeps their left foot over the brake should one of kids suddenly chase their ball into the road. Once past all of the kids, they'd move their left foot back to the dead pedal.
Don't forget that elite RFBers can cover the brake at the same time as using the throttle, and they have the abillity to move their right foot from throttle to brake in less than 10ms hehe

JimSuperSix

3,069 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
InitialDave said:
Yes, left foot covering the pedal in those kind of specific scenarios can be of benefit, but it's not the same as covering the pedal all the time - and the decision to cover the pedal is based on recognising the potential hazard that could develop.

I think it's the lack of that which is the problem with most drivers, not reaction times or which foot they'd brake with.
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.

InitialDave

5,629 posts

65 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
No, but that's the only time left foot braking will have an advantage of reduced reaction time. If you left foot brake all the time, those other times are just a different way of braking, without such a benefit.
So when just driving normally, left or right foot braking makes little difference.

Paul_M3

1,329 posts

131 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
InitialDave said:
Yes, left foot covering the pedal in those kind of specific scenarios can be of benefit, but it's not the same as covering the pedal all the time - and the decision to cover the pedal is based on recognising the potential hazard that could develop.

I think it's the lack of that which is the problem with most drivers, not reaction times or which foot they'd brake with.
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
Exactly - many the anti-lfb brigade keep making stuff up in their arguments which literally nobody has said in the thread.

e.g.

All people should be encouraged to LFB
People who LFB consider themselves driving gods
People who LFB cover the pedal ALL the time.

InitialDave

5,629 posts

65 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Paul_M3 said:
Exactly - many the anti-lfb brigade keep making stuff up in their arguments which literally nobody has said in the thread.

e.g.

All people should be encouraged to LFB
People who LFB consider themselves driving gods
People who LFB cover the pedal ALL the time.
I'm not anti left foot braking. I can do it and choose to use it when applicable.

I disagree with the idea that it is better than right foot braking in any meaningful way.

thiscocks

2,074 posts

141 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
Taylor James said:
Any possible advantages in everyday driving are highly debatable and marginal at best.
In your opinion, but anyone who LFBs daily knows exactly what the advantages are, and expert drivers agree.
He's just explained why any advantages are debatable. Your reply is lacking in any reasoning. Again, which 'expert drivers' agree?

thiscocks

2,074 posts

141 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
So you won't be covering it in any sudden unexpected emergency situations.

Paul_M3

1,329 posts

131 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
thiscocks said:
JimSuperSix said:
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
So you won't be covering it in any sudden unexpected emergency situations.
That's correct. And nor will the rfb.

In sudden emergency situations there is no benefit, both methods are equal. Again, nobody has ever said any different...

FiF

35,905 posts

197 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Paul_M3 said:
JimSuperSix said:
InitialDave said:
Yes, left foot covering the pedal in those kind of specific scenarios can be of benefit, but it's not the same as covering the pedal all the time - and the decision to cover the pedal is based on recognising the potential hazard that could develop.

I think it's the lack of that which is the problem with most drivers, not reaction times or which foot they'd brake with.
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
Exactly - many the anti-lfb brigade keep making stuff up in their arguments which literally nobody has said in the thread.

e.g.

All people should be encouraged to LFB
People who LFB consider themselves driving gods
People who LFB cover the pedal ALL the time.
Precisely, it's just repetitive straw clutching in order to create a non existent point for the purpose of knocking non existent point down. Pathetic.

And they keep saying there is no advantage despite folks pointing out the clear advantage in close quarter manoeuvring in vehicles where the creep mode isn't effective for whatever reason so you need to give it a little bit of gas and then be able to stop fairly soon afterwards.


V6 Pushfit

10,914 posts

56 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
I like a bit of close quarter manoeuvring, me.

Graveworm

2,454 posts

17 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
JimSuperSix said:
You keep saying this, but as usual you have zero evidence. I can tell you from my personal experience that I do not travel faster when covering the brake pedal with my left foot, probably because I am making a conscious decision to do something with the purpose of increasing the safety of myself and others.

It's very simple - travelling at the same speed, same driver etc.., you will stop quicker if you can LFB and are covering the brake. There's been no valid argument against this, no data that shows anything other than a 10ms difference between legs, expert drivers confirm the LFB benefits. and people who do it daily also confirm the benefits.
You keep ignoring people who have done it daily but disagree.
You also, as I wrote above say the one benefit of LFB (When the left foot is over the brake and the right would not have been) which I have not disputed is enough of an advantage to outweigh the disadvantages.
I said no one can know, if people driving that way would have travelled slower, so literally said there is zero evidence - but if in the same situation the RFB person takes their foot off the gas to cover the brake they would have been travelling slower and would have stopped quicker for a number of reasons.
You have zero evidence that OVERALL its better or safer and it is you who is suggesting change despite car manufacturers and safety bodies warning against IT so you probably should have.

FiF

35,905 posts

197 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
V6 Pushfit said:
I like a bit of close quarter manoeuvring, me.
Creeps also not too successful at it.

JimSuperSix

3,069 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
JimSuperSix said:
You keep saying this, but as usual you have zero evidence. I can tell you from my personal experience that I do not travel faster when covering the brake pedal with my left foot, probably because I am making a conscious decision to do something with the purpose of increasing the safety of myself and others.

It's very simple - travelling at the same speed, same driver etc.., you will stop quicker if you can LFB and are covering the brake. There's been no valid argument against this, no data that shows anything other than a 10ms difference between legs, expert drivers confirm the LFB benefits. and people who do it daily also confirm the benefits.
You keep ignoring people who have done it daily but disagree.
You also, as I wrote above say the one benefit of LFB (When the left foot is over the brake and the right would not have been) which I have not disputed is enough of an advantage to outweigh the disadvantages.
I said no one can know, if people driving that way would have travelled slower, so literally said there is zero evidence - but if in the same situation the RFB person takes their foot off the gas to cover the brake they would have been travelling slower and would have stopped quicker for a number of reasons.
You have zero evidence that OVERALL its better or safer and it is you who is suggesting change despite car manufacturers and safety bodies warning against IT so you probably should have.
I'm not suggesting change or anything of the sort, I am and have been saying that LFB enables you to get on the brake faster. Which it does, and it seems you agree. The speed thing is a total red-herring, again as said before, as you have zero evidence one or other driver would be going faster, so we must consider an equal starting point to make a valid comparison. In an equal comparison, LFB is just better.

Those of us who LFB are quite capable of judging what situations call for covering the brake pedal, so in general we will be safer in the most high risk situations. Of course nobody can anticipate every emergency but I would have thought common sense would tell you that. It's all about minimising your risk factor by choosing the approach that offers the best probable outcome, and being able to LFB and covering the brake in higher-risk locations does exactly that.

JimSuperSix

3,069 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th October
quotequote all
thiscocks said:
JimSuperSix said:
I don't think one person has said they cover the pedal all the time, in fact I and probably others have specifically stated (over and over and over) that we cover the pedal at times when its most likely to be needed.
So you won't be covering it in any sudden unexpected emergency situations.
Well you can't say "won't" as you have no way of knowing what the LFB or RFB drivers will have observed or anticipated. At worst the LFB driver will have the same overall braking time as the RFB driver. At best they will be able to stop or slow down earlier.

Personally I'd rather be in the camp that might stop earlier. I cover the pedal at times, and not at others, even when proceeding at a constant speed or accelerating, something RFB does not allow, so there is a higher overall chance I will be covering the pedal when or if that unexpected emergency occurs.