RE: Alpine | PH Meets

[Ken Figenus]

Fabulous car and would love a test drive but was a little surprised at the premium over a hot hatch. I also conceptually refuse to buy any sports car that doesn't come with a sports car exhaust - such a rip off when less muffling costs £2-£5k more! I admit this principle is VERY limiting

[TimoMak]

bcr5784 said:

TimoMak said:

Some mighty big presumptions there bcr5784, both about me and also about everybody else !

I always read the same st on here, 'oh you don't like the Alpine, must not have driven it then' as if it's not possible to dislike it for any other reason.

Car is massively overpriced, and will return to market values in due course. Of course if you don't give a st about that then crack on, in my view there's a lot better options out there particularly if you're spending 50 grand. Having Clio switchgear and the association with Renault just puts it in a different price point.

Compared sales in Europe with the 718 Cayman? The Alpine easily outsells it at the moment.

Sorry bcr5784 I'm going to have to call you out on the sales as I looked it up. The Alpine sold 3,453 across Europe this year to August. The 718 sold 4,853 units by comparison. It must be the "badge snobbery" that obviously works in its favour...

Either way in terms of French vs Japanese build I know where I'll spend my money.

[bcr5784]

TimoMak said:

Sorry bcr5784 I'm going to have to call you out on the sales as I looked it up. The Alpine sold 3,453 across Europe this year to August. The 718 sold 4,853 units by comparison. It must be the "badge snobbery" that obviously works in its favour...

Either way in terms of French vs Japanese build I know where I'll spend my money.

I assume I was right in suggesting you hadn't driven either Alpine or Supra since you didn't answer the question. Re sales, you are quoting 718 Cayman AND Boxster combined sales. The Boxster has always outsold the Cayman. The figures for the 718 Cayman I have are 1601 vs 2533 for the Alpine. When the Alpine convertible/targa comes out it will be fair to give combined figures. Only the Audi TT (coupe) outsells the Alpine.

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 8th October 17:22

[TimoMak]

bcr5784 said:

TimoMak said:

Sorry bcr5784 I'm going to have to call you out on the sales as I looked it up. The Alpine sold 3,453 across Europe this year to August. The 718 sold 4,853 units by comparison. It must be the "badge snobbery" that obviously works in its favour...

Either way in terms of French vs Japanese build I know where I'll spend my money.

I assume I was right in suggesting you hadn't driven either Alpine or Supra since you didn't answer the question. Re sales, you are quoting 718 Cayman AND Boxster combined sales. The Boxster has always outsold the Cayman. The figures for the 718 Cayman are 1601 vs 2533 for the Alpine. When the Alpine convertible/targa comes out it will be fair to give combined figures. Only the Audi TT (coupe) outsells the Alpine.

And yet, more spin and moving goalposts. Like reading all the paid for reviews in the press. If you must compare to a sub-variant of the 718 to make your case you go ahead, I'd be interested to know your source since even Porsche combine the sales of the tin top and soft top 718 models, as it's exactly the same car. Shall we split 911s by 4 wheel drive vs 2WD versions ? Or perhaps by wheel size and colour if it helps your argument ?

Incidentally you are wrong again but do seem to love beating that same drum as I have actually driven the A110 (and the Supra) but some time ago now. It's fun enough for 5 minutes on a back road but as an ownership proposition it falls down big time. The 4 turbo pot 252 HP engine along with paddles and cheaper interior (and having to go in to a Renault dealer) with no luggage space just doesn't work for me. Maybe if it was Japanese. In time it'll end up the same graveyard as the Alfa 4C, a flawed junkyard of curios.

[bcr5784]

from @carindustryanalysis

[Krikkit]

TimoMak said:

And yet, more spin and moving goalposts. Like reading all the paid for reviews in the press. If you must compare to a sub-variant of the 718 to make your case you go ahead, I'd be interested to know your source since even Porsche combine the sales of the tin top and soft top 718 models, as it's exactly the same car.

I don't really want to get embroiled in it, but it's a fair point to compare coupe vs coupe rather than bringing soft-tops in as well, they're not the same.

Even if you do include them, for the Alpine to sell anything like as many units (and it's not far apart) as the well-established Porsche can only point to it being very successful.

[SidewaysSi]

But the Supra is a bag of st. A completely missed opportunity.

Obviously our friend Mak doesn't care about such things...

[TimoMak]

SidewaysSi said:

But the Supra is a bag of st. A completely missed opportunity.

Obviously our friend Mak doesn't care about such things...

Care to elaborate ? Most would offer up a slightly more reasoned argument.

Anyway I suppose you think an aging Elise is the only car worth having to prove your PH cred.

Either way you sound like a so I won’t bother to engage with you.

[bcr5784]

SidewaysSi said:

But the Supra is a bag of st. A completely missed opportunity.

Obviously our friend Mak doesn't care about such things...

Don't want to go overboard on either side - it does seem to me that there is a lot of exaggeration going around. First, the Supra gets decent reviews - not as positive as the Alpine generally but it doesn't seem to me that it's a bad car (I haven't driven it) - but you might well think that Toyota have done a better job than BMW. BUT to make practicality its plus point is silly. The Cayman has it (and everything else) mullered when it comes to luggage space. Is the Supra better than the Alpine in that regard - more convenient yes, more in total, debatable - the Toyota boot "intrudes" into the cabin space (with the noise issues that result) . So as a daily proposition I think it's arguable whether the Toyota beats the Alpine. The Alpine beats both, Supra and Cayman in terms of road noise (if reviews and my experience are to be believed), and as a motorway companion would be my choice.

[springfan62]

TimoMak said:

SidewaysSi said:

But the Supra is a bag of st. A completely missed opportunity.

Obviously our friend Mak doesn't care about such things...

Care to elaborate ? Most would offer up a slightly more reasoned argument.

Anyway I suppose you think an aging Elise is the only car worth having to prove your PH cred.

Either way you sound like a so I won’t bother to engage with you.

You would like a highly reasoned argument for disliking the Supra, it’s a bit hypocritical coming on an Alpine thread with usual perjorative Renault jibes.

As to residuals who knows the what’s going to happen but Alpine are keeping supply under tight control and residuals are strong at the moment.

[Sporky]

TimoMak said:

Either way in terms of French vs Japanese build I know where I'll spend my money.

Reliability index puts Renault at 9th place, BMW at 31st, so the thinking money is on the Alpine being more reliable.

[SidewaysSi]

TimoMak said:

SidewaysSi said:

But the Supra is a bag of st. A completely missed opportunity.

Obviously our friend Mak doesn't care about such things...

Care to elaborate ? Most would offer up a slightly more reasoned argument.

Anyway I suppose you think an aging Elise is the only car worth having to prove your PH cred.

Either way you sound like a so I won’t bother to engage with you.

Put your handbag away FFS.

OK "st" was a bit hard. "Average" - is that better?

I see you looked at my garage...very good. I just looked at yours...;)

You do come across as someone who knows very little yet argues for the sake of it.

[amgmcqueen]

bcr5784 said:

from @carindustryanalysis

What a thoroughly depressing graph.

The worst car is the best seller and the best car is the worst seller.

[Sporky]

amgmcqueen said:

What a thoroughly depressing graph.

The worst car is the best seller and the best car is the worst seller.

I think what it suggests is that the Evora would sell more with a better interior and a lower entry price.

I loved the GT400 I test drove, but at two years old it looked 15 years old inside - that little LCD at the corner of the dash is particularly woeful, and was more expensive than the brand-spanky A110 I bought instead.

Selling more of them may not be the point, of course.

[bcr5784]

Sporky said:

I think what it suggests is that the Evora would sell more with a better interior and a lower entry price.

I loved the GT400 I test drove, but at two years old it looked 15 years old inside - that little LCD at the corner of the dash is particularly woeful, and was more expensive than the brand-spanky A110 I bought instead.

Selling more of them may not be the point, of course.

Me too the Evora is a terrific car and I can see some (including Harry Metcalf) would say it is a better car than the Alpine - but it is twice the price. Personally I did as Sporky did and bought the Alpine because I actually preferred it (even ignoring the price). The problem with the Evora is that most don't realise what a good daily it is and regard it as hard core. And the problem with the Lotus brand is that the shine has gone off it big time in recent years. Hopefully with Geely backing they will produce a new car which will be good enought make buyers take another look

[Miserablegit]

I can see the clowns are still out claiming a bespoke aluminium two-seater is overpriced because it uses a renault clio radio stalk...The F1 used the rear lights from a coach didn't it? The F1 was such a rubbish car...

I'm not bothered about sales - I'm happy if the Alpine remains a curiosity. I didn't buy it for other people, I bought it for me. With 11,000 miles on it despite it being meant to be used as a toy I still look forward to taking it for a drive for the sake of it. So much so that I'm now having to find reasons not to take it to the station (secure parking) for fear of losing the buzz I get when I see it again and sit in it.

[SidewaysSi]

Miserablegit said:

I can see the clowns are still out claiming a bespoke aluminium two-seater is overpriced because it uses a renault clio radio stalk...The F1 used the rear lights from a coach didn't it? The F1 was such a rubbish car...

I'm not bothered about sales - I'm happy if the Alpine remains a curiosity. I didn't buy it for other people, I bought it for me. With 11,000 miles on it despite it being meant to be used as a toy I still look forward to taking it for a drive for the sake of it. So much so that I'm now having to find reasons not to take it to the station (secure parking) for fear of losing the buzz I get when I see it again and sit in it.

Good on you - that's what it's all about. The Alpine would make a cracking do-it-all new car. Enjoy!

[ChasW]

SidewaysSi said:

Miserablegit said:

I can see the clowns are still out claiming a bespoke aluminium two-seater is overpriced because it uses a renault clio radio stalk...The F1 used the rear lights from a coach didn't it? The F1 was such a rubbish car...

I'm not bothered about sales - I'm happy if the Alpine remains a curiosity. I didn't buy it for other people, I bought it for me. With 11,000 miles on it despite it being meant to be used as a toy I still look forward to taking it for a drive for the sake of it. So much so that I'm now having to find reasons not to take it to the station (secure parking) for fear of losing the buzz I get when I see it again and sit in it.

Good on you - that's what it's all about. The Alpine would make a cracking do-it-all new car. Enjoy!

+1

When I walk past my local Ford dealer and see an Edge Vignale stickered at £45k+ I wonder why some fuss about the Alpine's price. I know it's not apples/apples but it's a perspective on what you get for you money.

[Sporky]

bcr5784 said:

Me too the Evora is a terrific car and I can see some (including Harry Metcalf) would say it is a better car than the Alpine - but it is twice the price. Personally I did as Sporky did and bought the Alpine because I actually preferred it (even ignoring the price).

I still have some mental teeth-grinding moments over not going for a 2-year old Evora GT400 (at pretty much the same money as my A110) - it was just brilliant - but so is the A110. The Evora had a bit more mechanical savagery and the jiggly steering, both of which I liked. The A110 felt more complete, and was overall just as good to drive. To be fair I don't think there's a bad choice between the two, and if my A110 hadn't been sat in storage since it was built I'd be very happy getting on with enjoying it, sparing the Evora only an occasional fond remembrance.

On the whole price argument... meh. You can buy much less interesting and less fun cars for the price of an A110, many of them (with apologies for the corksniffy comment) built on the same platform as white-goods runabouts. Not that I have anything against white-goods runabouts for their intended purpose - I won't be taking my wife and dogs on holiday in the A110 after all.

[bcr5784]

Miserablegit said:

I can see the clowns are still out claiming a bespoke aluminium two-seater is overpriced because it uses a renault clio radio stalk...The F1 used the rear lights from a coach didn't it? The F1 was such a rubbish car...

People focus on the wrong things. If a Rolls Royce used Clio switchgear that would be a case for rolled eyes.But in a sports car that is (mostly) about the driving experience?

What's more cheapskate?

Basing the coupe on the convertible platform (718/z4/Supra) - or doing a bespoke coupe chassis (Alpine) saving probably 80kg+

Using Steel rather than Aluminium (Supra/718) for the majority of the construction or making the thing almost entirely out of aluminium (Alpine) saving another 200kg +

Sticking with gear ratios which the whole world has been saying are too long (718) or specifying a bespoke and unique set which are sensible (Alpine)

Using strut suspension (718/Supra) rather than a superior (and more expensive) double wishbone arrangement (Alpine)


Compared with such major expensive design choices, using a few Renault switches really is (or should be) considered down in the noise.