RE: Five things I learned from going to Wales Rally GB
Discussion
I went, as I always do, and enjoyed it. The speed and commitment of the top drivers is something to behold - helped by the fabulous technology of the cars, and the detailed pace notes, as the same stages are used year on year (with the odd slight change of stage layout).
I do agree with an earlier poster about the lack of variety; they're all 1.6T 4 pots so they mainly all sound similar. In years gone by we cars had a distinctive engine/ exhaust note. Even the WRC2 cars are all 1.6T 4 pots. But that's just how it is.
No, it's not the old RAC which was 'special' and had massive crowds, mainstream national coverage on TV, radio and newspapers - and was normally the last major motorsport event of the year. Now it's just another event on a packed weekend of global motorsport.
Enjoy it for what it is - not what it used to be (something I'm guilty of).
I still class myself as a WRC fan, but I don't and never will like the direction it has gone; 12-14 events of two and bit days is not my idea of a WRC should be about. But the teams, FiA, the promoter have decided that this is what the modern WRC is all about. An easily packed series of compact events that can move around the world - and can deliver tv coverage every few weeks at the same time; finishing with the Power stage around lunch time.
Next year sees the return of the Safari - except it really isn't. Running a WRC event on 'open roads' isn't acceptable; so it will be the normal 2 and a bit days of action.
I liken it to running Le Mans over 6 hours on the Bugatti circuit, and telling everybody its the same.
As for the coverage, well, we've never had it so good. There is subscriber service WRC All Live for the dedicated fan, which is also on BT Sport, Red Bull TV (which is free)have nightly highlights plus a live stage on Saturday, then there are the Channel5 highlights, usually on the following Monday.
One final moan; WRC is producing another 3 way fight for the title, yet people moan about boring WRC domination. However, Mercedes/ Hamilton in F1, and Honda/ Marquez are completely dominating their series again, yet people are seemingly okay about it; and we get pages of inane drivel about it on here and in other forums while a WRC event is lucky to get a dozen comments.
I do agree with an earlier poster about the lack of variety; they're all 1.6T 4 pots so they mainly all sound similar. In years gone by we cars had a distinctive engine/ exhaust note. Even the WRC2 cars are all 1.6T 4 pots. But that's just how it is.
No, it's not the old RAC which was 'special' and had massive crowds, mainstream national coverage on TV, radio and newspapers - and was normally the last major motorsport event of the year. Now it's just another event on a packed weekend of global motorsport.
Enjoy it for what it is - not what it used to be (something I'm guilty of).
I still class myself as a WRC fan, but I don't and never will like the direction it has gone; 12-14 events of two and bit days is not my idea of a WRC should be about. But the teams, FiA, the promoter have decided that this is what the modern WRC is all about. An easily packed series of compact events that can move around the world - and can deliver tv coverage every few weeks at the same time; finishing with the Power stage around lunch time.
Next year sees the return of the Safari - except it really isn't. Running a WRC event on 'open roads' isn't acceptable; so it will be the normal 2 and a bit days of action.
I liken it to running Le Mans over 6 hours on the Bugatti circuit, and telling everybody its the same.
As for the coverage, well, we've never had it so good. There is subscriber service WRC All Live for the dedicated fan, which is also on BT Sport, Red Bull TV (which is free)have nightly highlights plus a live stage on Saturday, then there are the Channel5 highlights, usually on the following Monday.
One final moan; WRC is producing another 3 way fight for the title, yet people moan about boring WRC domination. However, Mercedes/ Hamilton in F1, and Honda/ Marquez are completely dominating their series again, yet people are seemingly okay about it; and we get pages of inane drivel about it on here and in other forums while a WRC event is lucky to get a dozen comments.
My rallying era can be defined by your first paragraph as well Dan. In fact, my Dad and I expressed surprise on Saturday that it was on when we spoke on the phone - it was November when we used to stand in the grounds of Chatsworth, or at Sutton Park, or even Donington once.
A client who I follow on Instagram is an amateur rally driver and went along. I got fired up by his Insta stories - more so than the snippets I caught on TV - and made a note to self to get my act together next year.
Not sure I'm all that cut out for that effort though! I'm certain youngest won't see the appeal in the slightest!
Though it has to be said, when I was a kid, I did envy my Dad's tales of following the night stages around Wales and then dashing back to Brum for his day job as a teacher. I guess at least this is closer to those halcyon days.
A client who I follow on Instagram is an amateur rally driver and went along. I got fired up by his Insta stories - more so than the snippets I caught on TV - and made a note to self to get my act together next year.
Not sure I'm all that cut out for that effort though! I'm certain youngest won't see the appeal in the slightest!
Though it has to be said, when I was a kid, I did envy my Dad's tales of following the night stages around Wales and then dashing back to Brum for his day job as a teacher. I guess at least this is closer to those halcyon days.
Part of the issue is that there doesn't seem to be the same clear progression link from grass roots up to top level rallying as was once the case.
I started in the 70s, road rallies, 12 car was my first event, went off. Progressed through closed and restricted events, spectating on national stages and RAC etc. The parallel between you as a beginner and those further up the tree were obvious, similar cars etc.
The first time seriously spectated on the RAC, as in renting a camper for a week and following it round living off beans and fish suppers was the year Makinen /Liddon won in the works Colibri Escort, 1974. This was when, to me, the gap between the top people and the local hot shots was clearly a matter of light years.
Everybody will have had at some point a special moment, here's mine.
November 1974 Coed-y-Brenin, early hours of the Sunday morning, still dark obviously. Downhill icy track, so icy you had difficulty standing up on it, over a little brow then steeper down into a 30 right over cattle grid between gate posts.
Spectator crowd scattered across the field either side of the track, none of us getting too close as it really was icy. First sound of a BDA engine at full chat, the distinctive Waaaa - Waaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa as the vehicle was wrung through the gears, going really hard, sometimes that noise varying as the rear wheels fought for grip and slip and grip. The loom of impossibly bright white lights over the near horizon. Christ he's going, just how on this ice?
Over the brow flies a bundle of noise, light, clattering stones, hot brakes, oil smell. Flash guns fire, "Makinen" someone shouts.
And he's off down the hill towards the 30 right over cattle grid, the dark outline of the car framed by a pool of theatrically illuminated track, centre stage is the 30 right and cattle grid.
"Bloody hell,he's still accelerating!" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
"He's got to be off!" "No way!"
Brake lights flare, Makinen hits the brakes, gets the level absolutely perfect, right on the point of almost locking up. Off the brakes, flicks it through right, and "Waaaa- Waaaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa" off into the night.
Spectators, utter stunned silence, just listening to the magic and realising they witnessed something special.
Thanks Timo, RIP.
I started in the 70s, road rallies, 12 car was my first event, went off. Progressed through closed and restricted events, spectating on national stages and RAC etc. The parallel between you as a beginner and those further up the tree were obvious, similar cars etc.
The first time seriously spectated on the RAC, as in renting a camper for a week and following it round living off beans and fish suppers was the year Makinen /Liddon won in the works Colibri Escort, 1974. This was when, to me, the gap between the top people and the local hot shots was clearly a matter of light years.
Everybody will have had at some point a special moment, here's mine.
November 1974 Coed-y-Brenin, early hours of the Sunday morning, still dark obviously. Downhill icy track, so icy you had difficulty standing up on it, over a little brow then steeper down into a 30 right over cattle grid between gate posts.
Spectator crowd scattered across the field either side of the track, none of us getting too close as it really was icy. First sound of a BDA engine at full chat, the distinctive Waaaa - Waaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa as the vehicle was wrung through the gears, going really hard, sometimes that noise varying as the rear wheels fought for grip and slip and grip. The loom of impossibly bright white lights over the near horizon. Christ he's going, just how on this ice?
Over the brow flies a bundle of noise, light, clattering stones, hot brakes, oil smell. Flash guns fire, "Makinen" someone shouts.
And he's off down the hill towards the 30 right over cattle grid, the dark outline of the car framed by a pool of theatrically illuminated track, centre stage is the 30 right and cattle grid.
"Bloody hell,he's still accelerating!" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
"He's got to be off!" "No way!"
Brake lights flare, Makinen hits the brakes, gets the level absolutely perfect, right on the point of almost locking up. Off the brakes, flicks it through right, and "Waaaa- Waaaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa" off into the night.
Spectators, utter stunned silence, just listening to the magic and realising they witnessed something special.
Thanks Timo, RIP.
Blakewater said:
The Great Orme stage ended up being cancelled due to rough seas as safety divers couldn't be positioned around the Orme to rescue anybody who crashed into the sea.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49948472
This makes me a bit sad, as the Orme is probably one of the easier stages for fans to access. It almost feels as though organisers expect someone to crash. Drivers are either highly paid pros who should know how to drive to the conditions, or skilled amateurs who probably own their cars and employ a degree of self-preservation.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49948472
You can't wrap everything in cotton wool.
Jon_S_Rally said:
t was a shame that Burton's car got banned, but I do understand why the MSA (as was) were nervous about such home-built cars. If someone built something in their shed and didn't know what they were doing, the consequences could be very serious. )
eh? You do realise the VAST majority of competition cars in the country and probably across the globe fall into this category. Very few vehicles in the grand scheme of things are factory backed and built.The current crop of WRC cars are astonishingly quick. I missed GB this year, but saw them in Finland. Not a fan of the 'super special' type stages either as competitor or spectator but I guess it spreads the event about a bit more.
The sport has evolved and changed and will continue to do so.
Now, there is another big rally on this weekend: Mull. 148 miles over a night, and afternoon and a night (compared to GBs 192 miles over 3 and a bit days). 150 cars, previous generation WRCs, Mk2s by the dozen, R2s, Subarus, Mitsubishis and everything inbetween. All the hotels and B&Bs on the island are full, so camping is the only other option. Am I looking forward to it? - yes! As lucky enough to be co-driving in car 14.
The sport has evolved and changed and will continue to do so.
Now, there is another big rally on this weekend: Mull. 148 miles over a night, and afternoon and a night (compared to GBs 192 miles over 3 and a bit days). 150 cars, previous generation WRCs, Mk2s by the dozen, R2s, Subarus, Mitsubishis and everything inbetween. All the hotels and B&Bs on the island are full, so camping is the only other option. Am I looking forward to it? - yes! As lucky enough to be co-driving in car 14.
300bhp/ton said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
Toyota GT86
Porsche 997
As WRC cars? Were these running this weekend and covered on the telly?Porsche 997
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_FIA_R-GT_Cup
sjabrown said:
The current crop of WRC cars are astonishingly quick. I missed GB this year, but saw them in Finland. Not a fan of the 'super special' type stages either as competitor or spectator but I guess it spreads the event about a bit more.
I remember going to Cardiff to watch the super special type stages, but I agree and I didn't enjoy them anywhere near as much as being in the middle of a forest watching the cars. As you say though...those events makes rallying a bit more accessible to everyone I guess.
Jon_S_Rally said:
Sadly, a lot of rally fans are allergic to change 
Not really. In fact it is the opposite.The current regs are stagnated as they do NOT allow change. It is a formula, that all the cars have to be built almost exactly the same, just finished off with a fake bodyshell on top. To make it appear as though it relates to that brand.
If the regs allowed change, there wouldn't be the dross of a one make series, which it currently is.
I'm not knocking the engineering, abilities of the cars or the drivers. But as Max_Torque said:
once you've seen one WRC car, you've seen them all........
Is bang on the money.
Jon_S_Rally said:
Don't get me wrong, Group A was brilliant, but it was doomed from the start. Producing homologation specials is expensive, so you're immediately limiting the number of manufacturers that will be involved.
I don't believe this. During the Grp A haydays there were more car makers than now or at any time since switching to the WRC format. I also doubt very much that building 100% purpose built race cars, with regs that change year on year (in minor ways, but enough to cost huge sums to address). Is cheaper.I'm willing to wager if the figures in full were looked at, that today's format is likely significantly more expensive.
I suspect the homologatoin specials you are thinking of were Grp B, not A.
Jon_S_Rally said:
The idea that a Group A car is like a road car is also a bit misleading in reality. I own a Group A car. The only standard part is the engine block. They were nothing like road cars.
What car do you own?And it depends what era and age of cars you are looking at. Building a rally spec TR7 V8, Escort, Sierra, SD1, 205 or even classic Impreza is not so difficult for an independent.
For example, this is a Grp A car, yet it is firmly related to the production car of the time. And would be possible for someone to build something similar if they so wished. And of course the elephant in the room, you could at the time go to the dealership and buy yourself something that was close enough to a road going version. Try that with any of today's WRC cars!!
Jon_S_Rally said:
The current WRC regs are far from perfect and I was a sceptic when they first appeared (I still am, as the cars are too expensive) but you can't deny that they have revitalised the series
I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. Maybe it is more popular in other countries. But as noted by this thread, the coverage in the UK is about as poor as it could be made. And I doubt physical spectator numbers are as high as they were in past decades.It also seems to be a dead duck as a marketing tool. I mean who in any frame of mind has visited any dealership in the past 20 years based on watching WRC?
However it was clearly obvious that many people did visit Subaru, Mitsubishi and Ford in past decades based on having a look at the rally born road going cars they had on offer. So much so, that car makers even introduced entire new divisions to cater for this.
"The Ford RS badge was born for rally racing, the RS stands for Rallye Sport."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Team_RS
Jon_S_Rally said:
. It's better than it's been in years.
Maybe so, but I'm not sure that means it is revitalised or good, just better.They were right to cancel Group S cars, its such a shame they then appeared as WRC cars later on. It really was the introduction of the WRC regs that, for me at least, and I think others in this thread. Is the distinct change in top flight rallying and not for the better.
Jon_S_Rally said:
Yes, the cars look similar and sound similar, but doesn't that just reflect the realities of the automotive industry?
No not really. We probably have more model choice and variety today than at any point prior.Plus in past rallying days it wasn't about just rallying your smallest dullest vehicle. The vehicles were often interesting and varied covering pretty much every body configuration out there.
For me they should have stuck with Grp A, but more strictly enforced keeping the tech, design and look closer to production cars. With a simple divide of 2wd and 4wd vehicles. So you could run more than one championship. This means we could have seen a proper competing rally Boxster, MX-5, Alpine. Alongside with saloon and hatch models. All running various different types of engines.
Jon_S_Rally said:
We have reached the optimum shape for road cars in terms of balancing aero and interior space
Really! 
do you honestly believe that.I'd have said older car were much more roomy inside for a given footprint. And many older cars were much more slippery shaped. Modern crash and impact regs play a huge part of the shape of a car today. Which is usually not aligned with interior space or aero.
Jon_S_Rally said:
and the industry has adopted small-CC turbo engines.
Which frankly can only been as a massive negative 
There is simply no way to look at it in any other way.
Jon_S_Rally said:
The regs exist to enhance competition and encourage participation.
I think it is clearly a fail, certainly on the latter and more than likely on the former.Jon_S_Rally said:
If you make it too open, the costs will spiral and teams will leave.
Again, history would suggest this is not the case.Jon_S_Rally said:
The Group A era is my favourite, but it's in the past and was unsustainable.
It wasn't and I don't believe there is anything to really back up that it wasn't. After all the Goledn age of rallying and the time prior and after to this were all based on production cars. 
ArnageWRC said:
I went, as I always do, and enjoyed it. The speed and commitment of the top drivers is something to behold - helped by the fabulous technology of the cars, and the detailed pace notes, as the same stages are used year on year (with the odd slight change of stage layout).
I do agree with an earlier poster about the lack of variety; they're all 1.6T 4 pots so they mainly all sound similar. In years gone by we cars had a distinctive engine/ exhaust note. Even the WRC2 cars are all 1.6T 4 pots. But that's just how it is.
No, it's not the old RAC which was 'special' and had massive crowds, mainstream national coverage on TV, radio and newspapers - and was normally the last major motorsport event of the year. Now it's just another event on a packed weekend of global motorsport.
Enjoy it for what it is - not what it used to be (something I'm guilty of).
I still class myself as a WRC fan, but I don't and never will like the direction it has gone; 12-14 events of two and bit days is not my idea of a WRC should be about. But the teams, FiA, the promoter have decided that this is what the modern WRC is all about. An easily packed series of compact events that can move around the world - and can deliver tv coverage every few weeks at the same time; finishing with the Power stage around lunch time.
Next year sees the return of the Safari - except it really isn't. Running a WRC event on 'open roads' isn't acceptable; so it will be the normal 2 and a bit days of action.
I liken it to running Le Mans over 6 hours on the Bugatti circuit, and telling everybody its the same.
As for the coverage, well, we've never had it so good. There is subscriber service WRC All Live for the dedicated fan, which is also on BT Sport, Red Bull TV (which is free)have nightly highlights plus a live stage on Saturday, then there are the Channel5 highlights, usually on the following Monday.
One final moan; WRC is producing another 3 way fight for the title, yet people moan about boring WRC domination. However, Mercedes/ Hamilton in F1, and Honda/ Marquez are completely dominating their series again, yet people are seemingly okay about it; and we get pages of inane drivel about it on here and in other forums while a WRC event is lucky to get a dozen comments.
Well put. We should enjoy the heritage of the sport, but we have to accept that times change. Many things about the modern WRC are much better than the old one, while some are not. Regardless, we should enjoy people driving fast cars on forest tracks and public roads for as long as we can!I do agree with an earlier poster about the lack of variety; they're all 1.6T 4 pots so they mainly all sound similar. In years gone by we cars had a distinctive engine/ exhaust note. Even the WRC2 cars are all 1.6T 4 pots. But that's just how it is.
No, it's not the old RAC which was 'special' and had massive crowds, mainstream national coverage on TV, radio and newspapers - and was normally the last major motorsport event of the year. Now it's just another event on a packed weekend of global motorsport.
Enjoy it for what it is - not what it used to be (something I'm guilty of).
I still class myself as a WRC fan, but I don't and never will like the direction it has gone; 12-14 events of two and bit days is not my idea of a WRC should be about. But the teams, FiA, the promoter have decided that this is what the modern WRC is all about. An easily packed series of compact events that can move around the world - and can deliver tv coverage every few weeks at the same time; finishing with the Power stage around lunch time.
Next year sees the return of the Safari - except it really isn't. Running a WRC event on 'open roads' isn't acceptable; so it will be the normal 2 and a bit days of action.
I liken it to running Le Mans over 6 hours on the Bugatti circuit, and telling everybody its the same.
As for the coverage, well, we've never had it so good. There is subscriber service WRC All Live for the dedicated fan, which is also on BT Sport, Red Bull TV (which is free)have nightly highlights plus a live stage on Saturday, then there are the Channel5 highlights, usually on the following Monday.
One final moan; WRC is producing another 3 way fight for the title, yet people moan about boring WRC domination. However, Mercedes/ Hamilton in F1, and Honda/ Marquez are completely dominating their series again, yet people are seemingly okay about it; and we get pages of inane drivel about it on here and in other forums while a WRC event is lucky to get a dozen comments.
PistonBroker said:
My rallying era can be defined by your first paragraph as well Dan. In fact, my Dad and I expressed surprise on Saturday that it was on when we spoke on the phone - it was November when we used to stand in the grounds of Chatsworth, or at Sutton Park, or even Donington once.
A client who I follow on Instagram is an amateur rally driver and went along. I got fired up by his Insta stories - more so than the snippets I caught on TV - and made a note to self to get my act together next year.
Not sure I'm all that cut out for that effort though! I'm certain youngest won't see the appeal in the slightest!
Though it has to be said, when I was a kid, I did envy my Dad's tales of following the night stages around Wales and then dashing back to Brum for his day job as a teacher. I guess at least this is closer to those halcyon days.
Rally GB is back to a November slot for 2020, so we can go back to being cold again A client who I follow on Instagram is an amateur rally driver and went along. I got fired up by his Insta stories - more so than the snippets I caught on TV - and made a note to self to get my act together next year.
Not sure I'm all that cut out for that effort though! I'm certain youngest won't see the appeal in the slightest!
Though it has to be said, when I was a kid, I did envy my Dad's tales of following the night stages around Wales and then dashing back to Brum for his day job as a teacher. I guess at least this is closer to those halcyon days.
300bhp/ton said:
As WRC cars? Were these running this weekend and covered on the telly?
No, but the point was about variety of cars, not variety of WRC cars. There were different classes in the good ol' days too after all.FiF said:
Part of the issue is that there doesn't seem to be the same clear progression link from grass roots up to top level rallying as was once the case.
I started in the 70s, road rallies, 12 car was my first event, went off. Progressed through closed and restricted events, spectating on national stages and RAC etc. The parallel between you as a beginner and those further up the tree were obvious, similar cars etc.
The first time seriously spectated on the RAC, as in renting a camper for a week and following it round living off beans and fish suppers was the year Makinen /Liddon won in the works Colibri Escort, 1974. This was when, to me, the gap between the top people and the local hot shots was clearly a matter of light years.
Everybody will have had at some point a special moment, here's mine.
November 1974 Coed-y-Brenin, early hours of the Sunday morning, still dark obviously. Downhill icy track, so icy you had difficulty standing up on it, over a little brow then steeper down into a 30 right over cattle grid between gate posts.
Spectator crowd scattered across the field either side of the track, none of us getting too close as it really was icy. First sound of a BDA engine at full chat, the distinctive Waaaa - Waaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa as the vehicle was wrung through the gears, going really hard, sometimes that noise varying as the rear wheels fought for grip and slip and grip. The loom of impossibly bright white lights over the near horizon. Christ he's going, just how on this ice?
Over the brow flies a bundle of noise, light, clattering stones, hot brakes, oil smell. Flash guns fire, "Makinen" someone shouts.
And he's off down the hill towards the 30 right over cattle grid, the dark outline of the car framed by a pool of theatrically illuminated track, centre stage is the 30 right and cattle grid.
"Bloody hell,he's still accelerating!" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
"He's got to be off!" "No way!"
Brake lights flare, Makinen hits the brakes, gets the level absolutely perfect, right on the point of almost locking up. Off the brakes, flicks it through right, and "Waaaa- Waaaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa" off into the night.
Spectators, utter stunned silence, just listening to the magic and realising they witnessed something special.
Thanks Timo, RIP.
The class system isn't ideal at the moment, that's for sure. The "R" cars have given a progression and path, but they're expensive and quite restrictive and, in the UK at least, people seem reluctant to use them at lower levels and then move up. As with all sport too, we seem to focus on getting people into the top as soon as possible so, rather than working your way up through low-level events, then nationals and internationals, we now seem to be parachuting people in to the upper echelons. At the extreme, you've got Solberg and Rovanpera in R5 cars as soon as they can drive but, even below that, many are skipping a lot of lower level stuff and aiming to get into the JWRC as soon as possible.I started in the 70s, road rallies, 12 car was my first event, went off. Progressed through closed and restricted events, spectating on national stages and RAC etc. The parallel between you as a beginner and those further up the tree were obvious, similar cars etc.
The first time seriously spectated on the RAC, as in renting a camper for a week and following it round living off beans and fish suppers was the year Makinen /Liddon won in the works Colibri Escort, 1974. This was when, to me, the gap between the top people and the local hot shots was clearly a matter of light years.
Everybody will have had at some point a special moment, here's mine.
November 1974 Coed-y-Brenin, early hours of the Sunday morning, still dark obviously. Downhill icy track, so icy you had difficulty standing up on it, over a little brow then steeper down into a 30 right over cattle grid between gate posts.
Spectator crowd scattered across the field either side of the track, none of us getting too close as it really was icy. First sound of a BDA engine at full chat, the distinctive Waaaa - Waaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa as the vehicle was wrung through the gears, going really hard, sometimes that noise varying as the rear wheels fought for grip and slip and grip. The loom of impossibly bright white lights over the near horizon. Christ he's going, just how on this ice?
Over the brow flies a bundle of noise, light, clattering stones, hot brakes, oil smell. Flash guns fire, "Makinen" someone shouts.
And he's off down the hill towards the 30 right over cattle grid, the dark outline of the car framed by a pool of theatrically illuminated track, centre stage is the 30 right and cattle grid.
"Bloody hell,he's still accelerating!" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
"He's got to be off!" "No way!"
Brake lights flare, Makinen hits the brakes, gets the level absolutely perfect, right on the point of almost locking up. Off the brakes, flicks it through right, and "Waaaa- Waaaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa" off into the night.
Spectators, utter stunned silence, just listening to the magic and realising they witnessed something special.
Thanks Timo, RIP.
300bhp/ton said:
eh? You do realise the VAST majority of competition cars in the country and probably across the globe fall into this category. Very few vehicles in the grand scheme of things are factory backed and built.
Of course they do, but there is a difference between a home-built near-standard car and something that's had the floor cut out, the rear end cut off and is entirely bespoke. Of course a badly built car of any kind can be dangerous, but I can still see why such cars were banned. The fact we don't get the proto cars over here is a bit of an oddity caused by the change, so it could be worth revisiting.300bhp/ton said:
Not really. In fact it is the opposite.
The current regs are stagnated as they do NOT allow change. It is a formula, that all the cars have to be built almost exactly the same, just finished off with a fake bodyshell on top. To make it appear as though it relates to that brand.
If the regs allowed change, there wouldn't be the dross of a one make series, which it currently is.
I'm not knocking the engineering, abilities of the cars or the drivers. But as Max_Torque said:
once you've seen one WRC car, you've seen them all........
Is bang on the money.
I would suggest that rally folk are quite clearly allergic to change (in the UK at least). If that weren't the case, most UK entry lists wouldn't be 30% Escorts and we wouldn't still be harping on about Group B.The current regs are stagnated as they do NOT allow change. It is a formula, that all the cars have to be built almost exactly the same, just finished off with a fake bodyshell on top. To make it appear as though it relates to that brand.
If the regs allowed change, there wouldn't be the dross of a one make series, which it currently is.
I'm not knocking the engineering, abilities of the cars or the drivers. But as Max_Torque said:
once you've seen one WRC car, you've seen them all........
Is bang on the money.
The formula exists because it's necessary. We had homologated Group A cars and, by the mid '90s, were rapidly running out of manufacturers. The WRC regs of '97 were introduced to save the sport. If they hadn't been, we would have been left with Subaru and Mitsubishi. Not to mention, as I said, a Group A car was naff-all like a road car. Every single mechanical component was changed and the body shells were often cut-up so much that they were bordering on being a silhouette even then. You could even argue that there was effectively a formula - C-segment car, 2.0-litre turbo engine, 4WD. Now we have B-segment car, 1.6-litre engine, 4WD.
Like I said, Group A was brilliant, my favourite era of all, but we have to be realistic too. Even if you remove all the aero, the cars would still look very similar, because most road cars look very similar.
300bhp/ton said:
I don't believe this. During the Grp A haydays there were more car makers than now or at any time since switching to the WRC format. I also doubt very much that building 100% purpose built race cars, with regs that change year on year (in minor ways, but enough to cost huge sums to address). Is cheaper.
I'm willing to wager if the figures in full were looked at, that today's format is likely significantly more expensive.
I suspect the homologatoin specials you are thinking of were Grp B, not A.
You might not believe it, but if it wasn't true, why did Group A fall over? The number of manufacturers in a championship is also influenced by more than just technical regulations of course. Given that Hyundai and Toyota have joined in the last few years, I would suggest that things have been going in the right direction. The new hybrid rules will be another test of course.I'm willing to wager if the figures in full were looked at, that today's format is likely significantly more expensive.
I suspect the homologatoin specials you are thinking of were Grp B, not A.
I've already said that the new cars are too expensive (I think we should have phased out the WRC cars and used R5 as the top category personally) but designing and homologating a road car is also expensive. Perhaps, with so many 4WD hot hatches on sale, we could find a middle ground again, who knows, but you need to sell a lot of units to offset the development costs, so there is no evidence that it would work in my view.
300bhp/ton said:
What car do you own?
And it depends what era and age of cars you are looking at. Building a rally spec TR7 V8, Escort, Sierra, SD1, 205 or even classic Impreza is not so difficult for an independent.
For example, this is a Grp A car, yet it is firmly related to the production car of the time. And would be possible for someone to build something similar if they so wished. And of course the elephant in the room, you could at the time go to the dealership and buy yourself something that was close enough to a road going version. Try that with any of today's WRC cars!!
An F2 Escort RS2000. One of the cheapest F2 Kit Cars, but still nothing like a road car.And it depends what era and age of cars you are looking at. Building a rally spec TR7 V8, Escort, Sierra, SD1, 205 or even classic Impreza is not so difficult for an independent.
For example, this is a Grp A car, yet it is firmly related to the production car of the time. And would be possible for someone to build something similar if they so wished. And of course the elephant in the room, you could at the time go to the dealership and buy yourself something that was close enough to a road going version. Try that with any of today's WRC cars!!
Yes, you can turn any of the cars you list into a rally car, along with basically any other car, but that doesn't make it a Group A car. Using your example, you can even make a pretty potent Impreza from a road car that, in the right hands, might trouble a WRC car that isn't being driven to its full potential, but it will still be a long way from the cost and complexity of the Impreza you picture above. It might look similar but, like my Escort, the Group A Impreza shared little with the cars in showrooms in the mid-90s. You can fit a WRC body kit to a Fiesta ST in the same way you can paint an Impreza blue and put a 555 livery on it, doesn't make them the same as the rally cars. Of course the modifications to the Fiesta are much more significant as it's been converted to 4WD, but I think the link between road cars and Group A cars is often a little stretched.
I would love to see cars in the WRC that were more closely linked to road cars but, again, in the current climate, it's just not that realistic.
300bhp/ton said:
I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. Maybe it is more popular in other countries. But as noted by this thread, the coverage in the UK is about as poor as it could be made. And I doubt physical spectator numbers are as high as they were in past decades.
It also seems to be a dead duck as a marketing tool. I mean who in any frame of mind has visited any dealership in the past 20 years based on watching WRC?
However it was clearly obvious that many people did visit Subaru, Mitsubishi and Ford in past decades based on having a look at the rally born road going cars they had on offer. So much so, that car makers even introduced entire new divisions to cater for this.
"The Ford RS badge was born for rally racing, the RS stands for Rallye Sport."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Team_RS
I think it's probably fair to say that rallying is doing better outside of the UK in some respects, but I think it has also improved in the UK in recent years. Crowds at Rally GB have grown I believe. The late noughties were a dark time for the WRC with only two teams, but things have improved dramatically. Are viewing figures as good as in times past? Perhaps not, but I never said they were, just that things are a lot better than they have been for a very long time. Rather than moaning, perhaps we should celebrate that.It also seems to be a dead duck as a marketing tool. I mean who in any frame of mind has visited any dealership in the past 20 years based on watching WRC?
However it was clearly obvious that many people did visit Subaru, Mitsubishi and Ford in past decades based on having a look at the rally born road going cars they had on offer. So much so, that car makers even introduced entire new divisions to cater for this.
"The Ford RS badge was born for rally racing, the RS stands for Rallye Sport."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Team_RS
Let's face it, motorsport in general has lost its popularity among many, as well as its marketing clout, which is why so many car manufacturers are now sponsoring other sports. Who has visited a dealership based on watching any motorsport, let alone rallying? Not many people anymore.
300bhp/ton said:
Maybe so, but I'm not sure that means it is revitalised or good, just better.
They were right to cancel Group S cars, its such a shame they then appeared as WRC cars later on. It really was the introduction of the WRC regs that, for me at least, and I think others in this thread. Is the distinct change in top flight rallying and not for the better.
So the recent changes have made it better, but you still think they're bad? I'm not sure that entirely makes sense...They were right to cancel Group S cars, its such a shame they then appeared as WRC cars later on. It really was the introduction of the WRC regs that, for me at least, and I think others in this thread. Is the distinct change in top flight rallying and not for the better.
Many would argue that introducing the WRC regs saved the sport. It ensured that Ford and Toyota stayed, as well as bringing in Peugeot, Citroen, Skoda, Seat and Hyundai. They did leave the rules in place for too long, meaning that most teams left again, but the WRC rules as introduced in 1997 saved the sport from becoming a two-horse race.
300bhp/ton said:
No not really. We probably have more model choice and variety today than at any point prior.
Plus in past rallying days it wasn't about just rallying your smallest dullest vehicle. The vehicles were often interesting and varied covering pretty much every body configuration out there.
For me they should have stuck with Grp A, but more strictly enforced keeping the tech, design and look closer to production cars. With a simple divide of 2wd and 4wd vehicles. So you could run more than one championship. This means we could have seen a proper competing rally Boxster, MX-5, Alpine. Alongside with saloon and hatch models. All running various different types of engines.
While we do have more model choice, we also have less engine choice. Plus in past rallying days it wasn't about just rallying your smallest dullest vehicle. The vehicles were often interesting and varied covering pretty much every body configuration out there.
For me they should have stuck with Grp A, but more strictly enforced keeping the tech, design and look closer to production cars. With a simple divide of 2wd and 4wd vehicles. So you could run more than one championship. This means we could have seen a proper competing rally Boxster, MX-5, Alpine. Alongside with saloon and hatch models. All running various different types of engines.
It isn't about the smallest, dullest vehicle, but about creating a ladder that people could move up. I'm no big fan of the R-classes, but I see why they did it and it has worked to some extent, as R2 and R5 have proven a huge success in terms of the number of cars out there.
The problem is, if we'd stuck with Group A in the 1990s, the sport would have died, as there simply weren't enough Group A-fodder 4WD road cars being produced. Everyone gave up, as they were expensive to build and sales were suffering because of high insurance etc. There is the possibility that it could be brought back now, thanks to a return of 4WD performance cars, but it's almost too late now in reality, as we're going to be going down the hybrid route.
As for 2WD and 4WD, that does exist in a way, but most manufacturers haven't bothered to create the cars. That's as much to do with promotion and marketing as it is the technical regulations I suspect.
300bhp/ton said:
Really! do you honestly believe that.
I'd have said older car were much more roomy inside for a given footprint. And many older cars were much more slippery shaped. Modern crash and impact regs play a huge part of the shape of a car today. Which is usually not aligned with interior space or aero.
Lordy, pedantic or what do you honestly believe that.I'd have said older car were much more roomy inside for a given footprint. And many older cars were much more slippery shaped. Modern crash and impact regs play a huge part of the shape of a car today. Which is usually not aligned with interior space or aero.
My point exactly. Within the current design constraints of aero, interior space, packaging, crash protection, we've reached just about the optimum shape that current materials and manufacturing techniques allow. That's why road cars all look very similar and, as a result, road-based race cars do too.300bhp/ton said:
Which frankly can only been as a massive negative
There is simply no way to look at it in any other way.
It's just reality. We can moan about it all we like, it's already happened and it isn't going to change.There is simply no way to look at it in any other way.
300bhp/ton said:
I think it is clearly a fail, certainly on the latter and more than likely on the former.
Except that, in the last few years, two more major manufacturers have joined the main WRC championship. Oh and M-Sport and Skoda have sold how many R5 cars between them?300bhp/ton said:
Again, history would suggest this is not the case.
The Super Touring formula in touring cars would counteract your argument, as well as the fact Group A rallying died on its arse as manufacturers pulled out.300bhp/ton said:
It wasn't and I don't believe there is anything to really back up that it wasn't. After all the Goledn age of rallying and the time prior and after to this were all based on production cars.
If Group A was sustainable, why did the rules change? Why did we only have Ford, Subaru and Mitsubishi in 1996 (as Toyota were banned) but, by the early 2000s, we'd had those, plus Seat, Skoda, Citroen, Hyundai, Peugeot? If it wasn't for the WRC regs, those manufacturers wouldn't have been there.Like I said much earlier in this topic, and on every other rally topic I post in, rally folk have a habit of looking at the world through rose-tinted specs. Group A is gone, Group B is gone, Group 4 is gone. They aren't coming back. The world of motorsport has changed. While we should enjoy the history of our great sport, we have to embrace change and enjoy what we have now. And what we have now is four manufacturers and, since we got the new cars in 2017, some of the closest competition we've had in a quarter of a century. It is far from perfect but, if people can't enjoy that and can only moan about what the cars sound like and that they can't buy one in the showroom, then motorsport probably isn't for them anymore.
Loplop said:
swisstoni said:
What?
The Beeb cut a deal with Sky for the broadcast rights to F1 in the UK.Which is why we have to pay for the entire Sky Sports package even though I personally couldn't give a toss about football, it's highlights only (bar the British GP) on Channel 4 now and we don't get the 'full' F1TV package including live footage in the UK.
I've just done exactly that and saved a few quid
Jon_S_Rally said:
No, but the point was about variety of cars, not variety of WRC cars. There were different classes in the good ol' days too after all.
But that was the point. In past times you'd get the variety of vehicles at a single event running the same stages. Sure they might not all have been competing directly with each other, but they were their to be viewed and heard.The fact you have plucked a couple of random cars that run only very specific events, that are mostly impossible for the average Brit to go and see easily and that aren't competing or entering the Wales GB rally, really sums up there is less variety today.
Jon_S_Rally said:
I've already said that the new cars are too expensive (I think we should have phased out the WRC cars and used R5 as the top category personally) but designing and homologating a road car is also expensive. Perhaps, with so many 4WD hot hatches on sale, we could find a middle ground again, who knows, but you need to sell a lot of units to offset the development costs, so there is no evidence that it would work in my view.
I just can't see how the figures add up.Homologating a vehicle isn't all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. As many major components already exist. So the development costs go into building a race car. But then you also recoup some of these costs by actually selling the cars. E.g. the Impreza Spec C's and the like.
With the WRC format you don't have any major components to start with and you have the entire development costs of building a car from scratch. Which must be more costly. And then you don't recoup any costs at all as they aren't sold.
Group B cars I can understand a little more. Very bespoke, so potentially expensive to build, but required in high enough numbers that you couldn't employ two people in a shed to build them. Which then also made them very expensive to buy, and thus difficult to sell. But Group A (maybe bar the last couple of years where the rules where being pushed a bit too far) this wasn't the case at all. And we ended up with lovely road going cars like the Type R/RA, GT-Four and many others.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 9th October 09:22
Jon_S_Rally said:
If Group A was sustainable, why did the rules change? Why did we only have Ford, Subaru and Mitsubishi in 1996 (as Toyota were banned).
You keep saying Group A had nobody competing and wasn't sustainable, despite the fact that the class had existed pretty much since the beginning of rallying and certainly in it's final guise for a long time prior.Might have been a low attendance, maybe partly due to the announcement for WRC. But looking into it, I'm not sure you can blame the Group A regs for the reason Toyota were banned and not present.
Also 1997, the first year of WRC there was only Ford, Subaru and Toyota. The same number of entrants as the year before. Mitsubishi did enter in 1997, but under Group A regs. Toyota even fielded Group A cars this year too, alongside their WRC effort.
Peugeot and Renault also competed this year, but again both under Group A, not WRC. So in WRC Regs first year, there were as many makers running Group A as there were WRC...
Looking either side of the WRC class for 1995 and 1998. There doesn't appear to be any greater of entrants in the 1998 than 1995. Might be slightly less. There were a few more F2 spec cars competing in the overall WRC Championship, but these evidently are built to WRC class regulations. And as you likely know were eventually banned, most likely due to them beating the WRC cars a bit too often on tarmac rallies.
The numbers would suggest that the introduction of the WRC regs did not magically alter the number of manufacturer entrants. the fact that getting on for 5 years later we had more entrants, is very hard to conlcude if that was directly related to or even had any influence by the introductoin of the WRC regs over Group A.
300bhp/ton said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
Good little piece. As I have said many times on this forum, you really need to see these cars in real life to appreciate just how special they are.
Special maybe, but sadly still very uninteresting to many rally fans Jon_S_Rally said:
So many just sit back and criticise the WRC, going on endlessly about "the good old days", wheeling out endless "it's not been the same since the end of Group B" and all that other cliched rubbish. If you actually venture out and watch them in the metal, you soon realise that they are talking rubbish.
Have seen them, and they are still uninteresting in the grand scheme of rallying. The exact thing wrong with them is highlighted in your next paragraph:Jon_S_Rally said:
The cars are absolute monsters
Couldn't give a toss how much of a monster they are. I want cars I can relate to and are far more grass roots in appearance and design. Personally I'm not promoting the Group B era either. For me it was what was Group A, before, after and during the Group B era. All of the modern "formula" rally cars all look too much the same, all look horrific, all sound the same and all appear to drive very similar. If it wasn't for the paint schemes you'd hardly know which one was going past. That is what is boring about them, no innovation, no variation. Basically, once you've seen one go past, the rest will not be anymore interesting. In past times there was great variety and array of sights and sounds. Making each car an individual spectacle to see and hear. It's not just WRC that is inflicted, any race series that is turned into a "formula" by the regulations usually ends up being utter rubbish and a shadow of it's former self. Even extreme motorsports like monster truck racing is so much less interesting these days, because they are all purpose built to a set of regs, rather than basing the builds on production vehicles. It is the regulations that make WRC boring, as it results in uninteresting cars.
So much so, I'd rather watch a car going half the speed on the same surfaces if it was a more interesting to watch and listen too. Ultimate speed really isn't and shouldn't be the main driver for making rallying interesting. It's a bit like just making music louder and louder, even if it's rubbish music.
Jon_S_Rally said:
and we are going through one of the most competitive and exciting eras of the sport we've seen in many, many years. It makes F1 look like watching paint dry.
So you will deride F1, but not let anyone have the same view of WRC...... 
I'd be more interested if these cars could also be bought as homologation specials.
Jon_S_Rally said:
It was a shame that Burton's car got banned, but I do understand why the MSA (as was) were nervous about such home-built cars. If someone built something in their shed and didn't know what they were doing, the consequences could be very serious.
Which is why there is the logbooking process - if you don't know what you're doing your car won't get a logbook. Andrew Burton did know what he was doing, his car was arguably safer than most in terms of its construction. Yet the MSA banned it. Meanwhile shed-built specials are still allowed on hill climbs, rallycross, comp safaris etc etc. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff