RE: Porsche Taycan 4S launched with 288-mile range

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

hu8742 said:

When will EV makers learn that range (and affordability) is way more important than top speed or sporty handling.

Seems a slightly odd comment to make on a thread about a Porsche?

There are plenty of mainstream manufacturers/brands concentrating on making mainstream EVs, with varying degrees of success.

a slightly odd comment given that even after expanding the original production capacity they have had to employ another 500 people to cope with the demand for the taycan which is still getting on for 2 years worth of orders

[otolith]

hu8742 said:

I bet if the option on this car or Model S/X was 'loose a couple of seconds in 0-60pmh and top end and have a further 25-50 miles', most folks would take that.

That's because you are thinking of petrol/diesel engines where if you want more power you have to accept worse fuel efficiency. Doesn't apply to electric cars, see Max Torque's explanation.

[Wills2]

kambites said:

I'm not convinced we're going to see many EV models with a realistical worst-case range of 350 miles (which will probably mean a WLTP range of 450+) though; I just don't think the demand is there.

Well it is from me and is the difference between adopting voluntarily in the short/mid term rather than being forced at some point further in the future, the 600-800 mile range of my 7er is one of its key features for me, going to some sub 250 or worse sub 200 range isn't what I'll be paying money for.

[otolith]

Wills2 said:

kambites said:

I'm not convinced we're going to see many EV models with a realistical worst-case range of 350 miles (which will probably mean a WLTP range of 450+) though; I just don't think the demand is there.

Well it is from me and is the difference between adopting voluntarily in the short/mid term rather than being forced at some point further in the future, the 600-800 mile range of my 7er is one of its key features for me, going to some sub 250 or worse sub 200 range isn't what I'll be paying money for.

That's quite a niche requirement.

I don't think there will be enough people who give a stuff about an ev having a 600-800 mile range for anyone to justify investing in making one.

[anonymous-user]

Max_Torque said:

Numeric said:

I always feel a little miffed that it seems that range is the sacrifice they make you have rather than performamce which is of massivley less importance to me, sub 6 being really fine in my real world!

As mentioned by others, unlike with an ICE powertrain, there is no direct positive correlation between power and efficiency for an Electric motor and control inverter. In fact, the opposite is generally true, in that a system optimised for high power can have lower loses that a low powered system. With an ICE powertrain, friction and heat loss scales with engine capacity and number of cylinders.

The biggest effector on range for an EV is the vehicles total road load, rather than its powertrain. Here, "performance" does have an effect, with wide grippy tyres having more drag, and aggressive suspension geometry for sharp handling resulting in more drag than a setup for low loss "straightlineing" etc

Total vehicle mass also isn't as important as you would think, because with regenerative capability from a bi-directional powertrain, around 70% of the energy stored in the vehicles mass at speed can be recovered

Something like a BMW i3 gets good range from any given amount of energy because the whole car is optimised for low consumption, ie a low average road load.

We tend to see powerful EVs initially for a couple of reasons:

1) EVs are currently more expensive to make than ICEs, simply because the production volumes are very much lower. People instinctively attribute expensive cars with being fast cars, so to release a £100k EV that is 'slow' (whatever you call that) would be unacceptable

2) Long range = big battery. A big battery means high power capability, so there is the ability to fit high power motors etc

3) The cost of the powertrain, battery excepted really doesn't scale with its power capability. A 200kW motor only costs a few $ more than a 100kW motor, so again, it's natural to start with high powered EVs as the first market entry point,

So the BMW i3 is the electric equivalent of the Citroen 2CV and they both roll a bit round corners..

[eftiem64]

Wow, that’s ugly!

[otolith]

eftiem64 said:

Wow, that’s ugly!

It's a modern German car, it's fashionably ugly like all the rest of them - though it is missing out on the massive gopping grille that seems to be mandatory now.

[kambites]

otolith said:

That's quite a niche requirement.

I don't think there will be enough people who give a stuff about an ev having a 600-800 mile range for anyone to justify investing in making one.

Oh I'm sure there will be enough demand for someone to make such a car. I just wouldn't expect there to be a great deal fo choice. If one in ten thousand drivers want (and are willing to pay for) that sort of range that's still quite a lot of people.

[otolith]

kambites said:

otolith said:

That's quite a niche requirement.

I don't think there will be enough people who give a stuff about an ev having a 600-800 mile range for anyone to justify investing in making one.

Oh I'm sure there will be enough demand for someone to make such a car. I just wouldn't expect there to be a great deal fo choice.

Batteries are expensive. I think commercial travellers and minicabbers will probably find it more cost effective to either continue to use fossil fuels or schedule fast charging.

I think the number of people who have a genuine reason to drive for 10-12 hours a day and get paid enough for sitting in a car all day to afford to own something that can is probably small.

[Nerdherder]

otolith said:

eftiem64 said:

Wow, that’s ugly!

It's a modern German car, it's fashionably ugly like all the rest of them - though it is missing out on the massive gopping grille that seems to be mandatory now.

I'm ordering in Mamba green and naming it Kermit!

[fatboy b]

Bloody hell, they’ve got a new light design apprentice

[Gandahar]

RacerMike said:

Scottie - NW said:

Dear PH, can you please stop repeating the word "Turbo" when there are none present and stop supporting this marketing BS.
Thanks.

P.S. If you have to use the word can you please either use "imaginary turbo" or "pretend turbo" instead

As said before...presumably it comes as a great shock to you that a Gillet Mach 3 Turbo razor doesn't have a turbo in it and neither did every 486 PC in the late 90s that had a 'Turbo' button on the front.

And also...strictly speaking a Turbofan jet engine isn't actually a turbo charged jet engine.

I'm still upset the Tesla Model S P100d doesn't even have a diesel engine in it.

[simonbamg]

I’m looking forward to the RS version

[964Cup]

otolith said:

kambites said:

otolith said:

That's quite a niche requirement.

I don't think there will be enough people who give a stuff about an ev having a 600-800 mile range for anyone to justify investing in making one.

Oh I'm sure there will be enough demand for someone to make such a car. I just wouldn't expect there to be a great deal fo choice.

Batteries are expensive. I think commercial travellers and minicabbers will probably find it more cost effective to either continue to use fossil fuels or schedule fast charging.

I think the number of people who have a genuine reason to drive for 10-12 hours a day and get paid enough for sitting in a car all day to afford to own something that can is probably small.

Well, at least there's someone else in my niche. Last time I complained that I needed proper range because we drive to Northern Italy five times a year, I was roundly raspberried. We do, though, and I don't really want to stop more than twice, and not for more than 10 minutes a time. It's a long enough day as it is without arsing about waiting for a charger to be free, and then waiting an hour for the car to charge, so I can get maybe 3/4 of the range I can achieve by spending 5 minutes at a fuel pump. 400 miles on a charge, with no more than 15 minutes charge time, would be fine. So if Porsche get 350Kw charging working properly, and put a 120Kw/h battery into a future Taycan LR, we might very nearly be there. Until then, we'll stick the PHEV for long drives and keep the BEV for the city.

Let's not talk about how our 2019 all-singing, all-dancing plug-in hybrid SUV gets worse MPG on long runs than either of my 964s...

[otolith]

I guess the question is much would you be willing to spend to save 5 hours a year? And how many others are there?

[AmosMoses]

I can see this model being a real Tesla killer, and I’m a fan of Tesla!

[_Neal_]

big_rob_sydney said:

Just imagine if we get power density increases that wind up halving the size of batteries; do you then actually halve the size of the battery, or, do you double the range?

Interesting thread. In respect of the above the BMW i3 has had its battery capacity doubled during its lifetime (5-6 years) without any changes to its packaging. So much so that they have ditched the range extender option as no longer needed. The tech is getting there...

[edwheels]

Compared with Tesla model S the interior - dashboard specifically - is much more pleasant here - I’m not a fan of the Tesla touch screen which I see as a massive distraction to the job of driving.

Whilst both those cars are completely out of my price range this Porsche moves the luxury EV market from niche to slightly less niche.

Thing is, today EVs depreciate slowly as the market slowly reacts and buys in, but if this new technology picks up suddenly (specifically range and charge time) all the EVs of today will rapidly look like old hat and may lose value even faster than that.... and the biggest depreciation will be at this luxury end.

[RobDickinson]

Article said:

its standard 79.2kWh cell, which offers 252 miles of range,

Uh ok, rated at 24.6kWh per 100km in mixed cycle gives it 320km/200mile range.


Where does 250miles come from? I expect a fair few dissapointed autobahn warriors with this...

[RobDickinson]

_Neal_ said:

big_rob_sydney said:

Just imagine if we get power density increases that wind up halving the size of batteries; do you then actually halve the size of the battery, or, do you double the range?

Interesting thread. In respect of the above the BMW i3 has had its battery capacity doubled during its lifetime (5-6 years) without any changes to its packaging. So much so that they have ditched the range extender option as no longer needed. The tech is getting there...

And the Zoe went form 22kwh to 55kwh in similar time.