RE: Next AMG C63 to go four-cylinder

RE: Next AMG C63 to go four-cylinder

Author
Discussion

deadtom

1,389 posts

112 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
Possibly this has already been posted in this thread, but it seems it is happening after all:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/next-a...

The king is dead. Long live the... king?

mikey k

12,384 posts

163 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
BenGB said:
I think the hardest thing to replace when the V8s go will be the brilliant feeling you get from driving one.
The combination of the huge torque which makes the car feel weightless, the instant acceleration and the noise is never going to be replicated by an electric car. The noise is such an integral part of the fun whether you are woofling effortlessly along with the traffic or giving it the 6000rpm beans on an empty road. It just puts a big silly smile on your face every time!
I've driven a few electric cars and they have the acceleration bit nailed, but without the noise there is no sense of drama and excitement - it's just like being in a fast lift.
So, I shall hang onto my E63 for a good while, and when it goes I'll find another V8 to make me grin. Life is too short to be bored by your car - I was forced to drive a 218d for a few weeks last year and hated everything about it and every mile driven!

Ben
You need to drive a decent Hybrid in sport mode where the electric motor is used to torque fill, it makes a V8 feel pedestrian.
Lack of decent noise is an issue thumbup
I have a 675LT, an M140i and a W205 C42, I love driving them all.
My wife has a hybrid BMW225XE, in Sport mode with a full charged battery it is more fun than the M140i
Battery soon drains though and then it becomes quite dull frown
I'd be very interested to see what you thought of a drive in the current E53?

Max_Torque

14,305 posts

164 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
donkmeister said:
I realise that when you talk about EVs doing MPG you're not literally saying that they consume gallons of leccy... What is the going rate of conversion between a litre of petrol and kWh of electricity?
In order to be able to make an easy comparison on energy consumption, i talk about mpg for EVs as an Energy Equivalency. The energy density for chemical fuels is fixed by their chemical make up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density


1 litre of petrol can release when oxidised (burnt) 34.2 MegaJoules (MJ) per litre, where mega means "million". ie each litre of petrol contains 34,200,000 joules of energy.


Electricity is measured in terms of power per unit time, for example, Watt hours, ie if you have an electrical load, with a power of say 1,000 watts, running for 1 hour, it'll consume 1kWhr, where the "k" stands for Kilo, which means "1000"

As MJ and kWh are both units of energy, they are comparable ( a Joule is 1 watt per second) and the scaling is 3.6 MJ = 1 kWh, ie if you use 1 kWh of electricity that's the same as using 3.6 MJ of energy.


So, a petrol car doing 30 miles per gallon, is:

1) using a litre of petrol per 6.6 miles driven (4.55 litres in a UK gallon, 30 / 4.55 = 6.6)

2) 1 litre of petrol is 34.2 MJ of energy, so is using 5.19 MJ per mile (34.2 MJ per litre over 6.6 miles is 34.2 / 6.6 = 5.19)

3) 3.6 MJ is equivalent to 1 kWh, so over that mile our ICE is consuming 5.19 / 3.6 = 1.44 kWh per mile, or 1,440 Wh per mile


To put that into perspective, a EV driven at typical UK speeds, loads and temperature returns around 4 miles per kWh, ie 250 Wh per mile, an equivalent of using 1,440 / 250 = 5.7 times less energy, or doing 5.7 more mpg (30 mpg x 5.7 = 173 mpg), when we look at the energy used at a vehicle level.

Now of course, we are not including the efficiency of producing or transmitting the electricity used by the EV, but by the same token, when you quote MPG for your ICE that does not include the efficiency or losses in getting (and critically refining) that petrol to the garage at which you fill up.


dinkel

25,052 posts

205 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
The 4 litre turbo V8 is a gem. It really is.

With all its flaws the 6.3 litre is a riot.

Perfection is the evil of good. It really is.

I guess the NA V8 cars will be kept and cherished by the enthusiasts.

BenGB

50 posts

76 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
mikey k said:
BenGB said:
I think the hardest thing to replace when the V8s go will be the brilliant feeling you get from driving one.
The combination of the huge torque which makes the car feel weightless, the instant acceleration and the noise is never going to be replicated by an electric car. The noise is such an integral part of the fun whether you are woofling effortlessly along with the traffic or giving it the 6000rpm beans on an empty road. It just puts a big silly smile on your face every time!
I've driven a few electric cars and they have the acceleration bit nailed, but without the noise there is no sense of drama and excitement - it's just like being in a fast lift.
So, I shall hang onto my E63 for a good while, and when it goes I'll find another V8 to make me grin. Life is too short to be bored by your car - I was forced to drive a 218d for a few weeks last year and hated everything about it and every mile driven!

Ben
You need to drive a decent Hybrid in sport mode where the electric motor is used to torque fill, it makes a V8 feel pedestrian.
Lack of decent noise is an issue thumbup
I have a 675LT, an M140i and a W205 C42, I love driving them all.
My wife has a hybrid BMW225XE, in Sport mode with a full charged battery it is more fun than the M140i
Battery soon drains though and then it becomes quite dull frown
I'd be very interested to see what you thought of a drive in the current E53?
Nice garage you've got there!
You're quite right - electric cars are quick (and can be reallllly quick), especially from a standing start, but without the noise it's just not the same! I think I'm just old fashioned but I love the way you get a tiny bit of a delay as the turbos spool up, with a bit of a whistle and a whoosh over the top of the V8 and then bang - off you go!
Not driven a more recent Merc to be honest. I bet the E53 would be pretty much as quick (and a lot quicker in the wet!) but would it sound as nice...? I think I just prefer older cars that make you get involved - I'm probably getting old!

TheAngryDog

9,427 posts

156 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
deadtom said:
Possibly this has already been posted in this thread, but it seems it is happening after all:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/next-a...

The king is dead. Long live the... king?
So it's just a slightly different take on a CLA45?

mikey k

12,384 posts

163 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
BenGB said:
mikey k said:
BenGB said:
I think the hardest thing to replace when the V8s go will be the brilliant feeling you get from driving one.
The combination of the huge torque which makes the car feel weightless, the instant acceleration and the noise is never going to be replicated by an electric car. The noise is such an integral part of the fun whether you are woofling effortlessly along with the traffic or giving it the 6000rpm beans on an empty road. It just puts a big silly smile on your face every time!
I've driven a few electric cars and they have the acceleration bit nailed, but without the noise there is no sense of drama and excitement - it's just like being in a fast lift.
So, I shall hang onto my E63 for a good while, and when it goes I'll find another V8 to make me grin. Life is too short to be bored by your car - I was forced to drive a 218d for a few weeks last year and hated everything about it and every mile driven!

Ben
You need to drive a decent Hybrid in sport mode where the electric motor is used to torque fill, it makes a V8 feel pedestrian.
Lack of decent noise is an issue thumbup
I have a 675LT, an M140i and a W205 C42, I love driving them all.
My wife has a hybrid BMW225XE, in Sport mode with a full charged battery it is more fun than the M140i
Battery soon drains though and then it becomes quite dull frown
I'd be very interested to see what you thought of a drive in the current E53?
Nice garage you've got there!
You're quite right - electric cars are quick (and can be reallllly quick), especially from a standing start, but without the noise it's just not the same! I think I'm just old fashioned but I love the way you get a tiny bit of a delay as the turbos spool up, with a bit of a whistle and a whoosh over the top of the V8 and then bang - off you go!
Not driven a more recent Merc to be honest. I bet the E53 would be pretty much as quick (and a lot quicker in the wet!) but would it sound as nice...? I think I just prefer older cars that make you get involved - I'm probably getting old!
Yep defo blessed to have those to chose from.
contemplating adding a flat 3.4 at the mo.
Beauty of the E53 is it have the 3.0 V6 turbo which does make a nice sound, but also has a little bit of EV for that extra torque.
Allegedly as fast as the previous gen E63 and AWD.
Could be a good compromise?

GTiWILL

222 posts

25 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
MickyveloceClassic said:


Per litre, one of the most economical cars on the road (W204); can’t think why they need to improve it.
I particularly like “6.3 V8” on the rev counter. In case you forget biglaugh

BenGB

50 posts

76 months

Friday 18th October
quotequote all
mikey k said:
BenGB said:
mikey k said:
BenGB said:
I think the hardest thing to replace when the V8s go will be the brilliant feeling you get from driving one.
The combination of the huge torque which makes the car feel weightless, the instant acceleration and the noise is never going to be replicated by an electric car. The noise is such an integral part of the fun whether you are woofling effortlessly along with the traffic or giving it the 6000rpm beans on an empty road. It just puts a big silly smile on your face every time!
I've driven a few electric cars and they have the acceleration bit nailed, but without the noise there is no sense of drama and excitement - it's just like being in a fast lift.
So, I shall hang onto my E63 for a good while, and when it goes I'll find another V8 to make me grin. Life is too short to be bored by your car - I was forced to drive a 218d for a few weeks last year and hated everything about it and every mile driven!

Ben
You need to drive a decent Hybrid in sport mode where the electric motor is used to torque fill, it makes a V8 feel pedestrian.
Lack of decent noise is an issue thumbup
I have a 675LT, an M140i and a W205 C42, I love driving them all.
My wife has a hybrid BMW225XE, in Sport mode with a full charged battery it is more fun than the M140i
Battery soon drains though and then it becomes quite dull frown
I'd be very interested to see what you thought of a drive in the current E53?
Nice garage you've got there!
You're quite right - electric cars are quick (and can be reallllly quick), especially from a standing start, but without the noise it's just not the same! I think I'm just old fashioned but I love the way you get a tiny bit of a delay as the turbos spool up, with a bit of a whistle and a whoosh over the top of the V8 and then bang - off you go!
Not driven a more recent Merc to be honest. I bet the E53 would be pretty much as quick (and a lot quicker in the wet!) but would it sound as nice...? I think I just prefer older cars that make you get involved - I'm probably getting old!
Yep defo blessed to have those to chose from.
contemplating adding a flat 3.4 at the mo.
Beauty of the E53 is it have the 3.0 V6 turbo which does make a nice sound, but also has a little bit of EV for that extra torque.
Allegedly as fast as the previous gen E63 and AWD.
Could be a good compromise?
Maybe...but then I've only had the E63 for 6 months, so I'll hang onto it for a while yet (at least until the warranty runs out when it may get a bit scary to run! I managed to get a single bed in the back last week and could still (just about) drive it - it's a very practical love child of a transit van and a supercar!

C.MW

181 posts

16 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
This is the most dreadful news to come out of the car world in the last ten years. I've never really been fascinated about any generation of the c63 but still. How are they going to sell a product without its USP? Oh well people probably don't care what's inside it like they did before, it's all about image now I guess.

Edited by C.MW on Saturday 19th October 06:20

Tim bo

1,451 posts

87 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
sideshowfred said:
Whilst it's a shame that they look to be getting rid of the big motors, how many of you complaining would be willing to put your hands in your pocket and fork out for a brand new V8 C63? .
Me.

I bought a brand new C63 coupé last year.

It's on a 3 year lease, so will be up by 2021, a year before this supposed replacement.

And for the first time in my motoring life I will probably be replacing the C63 with a new like-for-like.

As many have said, the V8 is the USP of this car. I wouldn't want a C63 with a hugely-blown four á la A45 or a hybrid 6 á la E53.


schmalex

13,129 posts

153 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
Likewise with my C63 wagon



They are truly sublime vehicles.

delta0

1,212 posts

53 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
The only way this will work is if they can get the sound of the V8.

cerb4.5lee

12,813 posts

127 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
When one of the best manufacturers of V8 engines decides to switch to a 4 cylinder engine...that is when you know that we are screwed going forward as enthusiasts. cry

The only saving grace for me personally is that I was born in the early 70's so I've had the pleasure of listening to/experiencing a nice V8 engine.

Imagine being born now and only having 4 cylinder(or less) engined cars and electric cars to enjoy...sad and depressing for sure Imo. frown

AC43

7,367 posts

155 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
mikey k said:
contemplating adding a flat 3.4 at the mo.
Do it! :-)


mikey k said:
Beauty of the E53 is it have the 3.0 V6 turbo which does make a nice sound, but also has a little bit of EV for that extra torque.
Allegedly as fast as the previous gen E63 and AWD. Could be a good compromise?
I've been intrigued by that powerplant because, as you say, it seems like a good compromise. Especially if its like Lexus powertrain in that you can drive round town on the electric motor alone. And out of town give it the bans with the combined powertrain.

My only gripe is that it took MB so long to get there there are none trickingling down at the sub-£20k mark yet and won't be for years. As I said earler, MB insisted on persisting with a horrible diesel 4 pot hybrid in the E at at time when diesels have become an anathema for many city dwellers. And the 4 pot MB engine is seriously agricultural.

Oh well, I'll just have to hang onto the V8 for two or three years.


Mr Whippy

21,895 posts

188 months

Saturday 19th October
quotequote all
Shirley it costs way more to blow/hybrid/battery a powertrain?

And so the new buyers are going to get a higher price to pay for their mpg benefit?
Or lower quality elsewhere to offset it?

And longer term maintenance must surely offset the mpg benefits (financially) in use?

Turbo engine, high spec output, hybrid bits, etc, can’t be more robust than a big lazy V8?

RSchneider

102 posts

111 months

Sunday 20th October
quotequote all
If they really do that, why not shut down AMG right away? Saves them the agony of a slow decline and death.

b0rk

940 posts

93 months

Sunday 20th October
quotequote all
Well with various ICE bans on the way from 2025 onwards a large OEM like MB have to consider what will be saleable over the intended life of say 7/8 years realistically the next C (and E) need to be hybrids or more radically pure EV’s.

Do I think a hybrid 4 pot is good thing in the C/E no but it is a quite logical really. Remember AMG shifted production of the 4 pot to afferbach for this generation which can only indicate larger plans for the unit.

The V6 unit isn’t a hand built one man unit so I can’t see it becoming the AMG flagship motor unless one man one engine is going to be dropped.

Plate spinner

13,589 posts

147 months

Sunday 20th October
quotequote all
b0rk said:
Well with various ICE bans on the way from 2025 onwards a large OEM like MB have to consider what will be saleable over the intended life of say 7/8 years realistically the next C (and E) need to be hybrids or more radically pure EV’s.

Do I think a hybrid 4 pot is good thing in the C/E no but it is a quite logical really. Remember AMG shifted production of the 4 pot to afferbach for this generation which can only indicate larger plans for the unit.

The V6 unit isn’t a hand built one man unit so I can’t see it becoming the AMG flagship motor unless one man one engine is going to be dropped.
My bet is they’ll drop the one man one engine thing soon.
Especially when the engine is just a range extender or jettisoned altogether.

AMG is already general-public branding = fast and / or looks fast Mercedes.

Welshbeef

38,283 posts

145 months

Sunday 20th October
quotequote all
One of the AMGs USP is the handbuilt engines
Another the huge power
Another the noise
Another the aggressive looks - though not as strong as the Audi RS
The history of the V8 and V12’s


It will be very interesting to see how such a brand changes given EV only future. I’m not sure how any of the above can be retained (looks aside).

Same issue could be put against so many other brands too