RE: New Nissan 370Z finally in development

[J4CKO]

unsprung said:

samoht said:

I would say Nissan would need either better styling or lower cost to make it worth their while; either would appear feasible. Nissan have a big US market for the 'Zee' to drive sales volume.

Yes, it's entirely possible for the new Z car to be both very good looking and reasonably, but not cheaply, priced. It's not difficult to imagine Nissan delivering a look that outperforms the Toybaru twins, that is less polarising than the A90 Supra, more extroverted than Alpine and MX-5, and which steadfastly rejects the anodyne shapes that dominate cars today.

You're right about the US market, I believe. The formula for success of the new Z car must be similar to that of Mustang: ie, ensure volume sales in the US such that higher costs borne in other countries can be, to a certain extent, amortised.

Volume for the Z car will not be Mustang-sized, but it must be substantial. Additionally, we should expect some degree of volume from China to support our maths. I will be surprised if Europe is the focus of this car.

The last time I commented on PH about the Z car franchise, another bloke insisted that the car (as we know it in the West) was conceived solely for a handful of discerning British motorists and that the story of Yutaka Katayama and his focus on the US market, is a cover-up propagated for more than 50 years by motoring press on both sides of the Atlantic.

samoht said:

Drivetrain possibilities:
4.0L nat-asp V6 with hybrid assist
3.0L turbo V6
2.5L turbo V6 with hybrid assist
1.5L turbo triple as a generator, full electric drive (like their e-Power Note & Serena)
Pure electric (e.g. insert two complete Leaf batteries and drivetrains, one at each end)

which would you favour?

Your entire post is engaging and, I believe, adds a lot of value to this thread.

Of your choices, I'm going to go with the 2.5L turbo V6 with hybrid assist. And here's why:

Nissan are going to challenge the sports car category a bit (I'm guessing here) by positioning the new Z car as the best expression of classical motoring. A sense of occasion.

Crucially, they will not focus on speed. Engagement and sound will be their calling card.

To achieve this, Nissan would specify a powertrain that allows for peaky revs -- yet also power -- and they will offer a manual transmission. They of course know that a self-shifting dual-clutch unit must be offered, and this will have driver settings that maximise on revs and on hustling through curves.

By weaving in the hybrid gubbins, Nissan provide both welcome torque and a bit of the future-proof. Furthermore, as it's still early days for hybrid performance powertrains, Nissan will enjoy some limelight here.

samoht said:

I'd love it to be lighter, but I doubt that would happen.

Agreed. All but impossible, especially if hybrid bits are added. A non-starter, really.

Also, price planning and product margin will limit the ability to use high-cost lightweight materials. But who knows: if Nissan are feeling revolutionary, there's always the polyester-based sheet moulding compound as used on Corvette.

samoht said:

Indeed, the A90 Supra is an obvious target market to aim for. Although, if a new 300Z arrived with a manual gearbox, it might not take Toyota long to respond, given that all the parts already exist in BMW's parts bin to do it.

Can't see any change like that, from Toyota. It almost appears as if they could barely afford to share the project with BMW. I doubt they'll lift a finger to make such a significant update, even if there are parts in the BMW bin. I like the A90, but it does seem a fig leaf.

There is a new GTR due, that will be a hybrid, I suspect the new Z will share some development, tooling and componentry with that car and be a sort of cost reduced RWD GTR to a degree. Toyota didnt have anything to work with, so cosied up with BMW, Nissan are already half way there.

[Miserablegit]

Current car is £30-35k
Where will they pitch the next version?
If it’s going to have the upgrades suggested then it’s going to play in what is becoming a crowded space of £50-£55k
I’m not saying they couldn’t be successful but aren’t most bases covered?

[cerb4.5lee]

Miserablegit said:

Current car is £30-35k
Where will they pitch the next version?
If it’s going to have the upgrades suggested then it’s going to play in what is becoming a crowded space of £50-£55k
I’m not saying they couldn’t be successful but aren’t most bases covered?

Agree and the USP of the Z car has always been relative affordability. I think Nissan will shoot themselves in the foot if it is around the £50k mark, so much competition at that price point.

[Venturist]

cerb4.5lee said:

Agree and the USP of the Z car has always been relative affordability. I think Nissan will shoot themselves in the foot if it is around the £50k mark, so much competition at that price point.

So, cynical me firmly expects that that’s where it will be. Only Chevy have had the balls to go for anything pleasantly surprising on the cost:value ratio lately. Everything else costs a bit more than how badly you want it, and the finance/lease deals are rubbish, and then the manufacturers complain of poor sales.

[Zed Ed]

The Le Mans three wheeler has yet to be reflected in a production model. This could be the ideal opportunity.

[swisstoni]

The car pictured has to be a test mule surely.
They couldn’t possibly release something almost exactly the same as the outgoing and aged design and expect it to sell.

[ZX10R NIN]

It'll be using the same V6TT found in the Q50/60 I'd guess it'll be 400+ & be manual which I think it'll take some Supra sales if it does, in the states they're already seeing 800bhp out of this engine so the tuning scene will be well catered for too.

[Trevor555]

"given the old 3.7-litre V6 was well past its best"

Are they really that bad?

I've been watching the prices of the Nismo 370's dropping a bit lately.

They're starting to look an attractive buy at sub 20k.

[sandys]

I quite enjoyed the VQ when I have driven it in the Nismo 370z, seemed happy to rev to me but the rest of the car is quite old and it is quite heavy for what it is, it still tempts me though as it felt a lot like my MX5, a modern turbo charged thing is going to be just as heavy, hardly any more economical and no longer rev out or respond in the same way, no doubt mated to a horrid auto box, would be a shame.

[Venturist]

swisstoni said:

The car pictured has to be a test mule surely.
They couldn’t possibly release something almost exactly the same as the outgoing and aged design and expect it to sell.

What? How could you think this is anything but?!

[swisstoni]

Venturist said:

swisstoni said:

The car pictured has to be a test mule surely.
They couldn’t possibly release something almost exactly the same as the outgoing and aged design and expect it to sell.

What? How could you think this is anything but?!

Well, I skimmed the article and it mentioned a funny grille; nobody usually comments on the looks of a test mule.
But yes, I got it wrong.

[cerb4.5lee]

Trevor555 said:

"given the old 3.7-litre V6 was well past its best"

Are they really that bad?

I like that it feels torquey for a NA engine and it feels pretty gutsy. l also love the noise mine makes with its hi flow sports cats/custom stainless exhaust and stillen intakes(as standard they are very muted). It just runs out of breath right at the top of the revs/feels a little harsh/reluctant to me.

I think that the BMW NA engines I've had have spoilt me a bit because they spin so smoothly right to the redline, but the trade off is that they don't feel as gutsy lower down the revs like the VQ 3.7 V6 engine does though.

[MB140]

We have had a 350z and 370z. Loved them both. If they could make it a bit lighter and give it 400bhp sign me up.

I even got a ride in a supercharged 370z with 400+bhp. It really livened it up.

[delta0]

Interested in this!

Any pics of the car or did they forget to design the car because they were focusing on the engine so much?

[Venturist]

delta0 said:

Interested in this!

Any pics of the car or did they forget to design the car because they were focusing on the engine so much?

If this is in fact a mule and not just some bloke’s dodgy looking track car, it’s probably 12 months away from even a “concept car” being shown to the public...

[300bhp/ton]

MB140 said:

We have had a 350z and 370z. Loved them both. If they could make it a bit lighter and give it 400bhp sign me up.

I even got a ride in a supercharged 370z with 400+bhp. It really livened it up.

400hp I can believe. But lighter? Seriously what remotely comparable vehicles weigh less?

Didn’t the 370z tip the scales at around 1450kg in its lightest guise.

[samoht]

300bhp/ton said:

Seriously what remotely comparable vehicles weigh less?

Didn’t the 370z tip the scales at around 1450kg in its lightest guise.

nissan.co.uk quotes 1496kg for the lightest 370Z, so say 1500kg on the nose.

Porsche Cayman 981 is 1400, so 100kg lighter - another two seat, six cylinder coupe.
Alpine is lighter still although less luggage space I imagine, and four-pot engine.
Going back a way, RX-7 was sub-1300kg in most trims (but yeah, old car so less comparable).

So it's fair that we shouldn't expect a super-light Z car, but at the same time shaving 5-10% by not basing it on a saloon platform would be really helpful to performance, handling, feel - and CO2 emissions.

[delta0]

samoht said:

300bhp/ton said:

Seriously what remotely comparable vehicles weigh less?

Didn’t the 370z tip the scales at around 1450kg in its lightest guise.

nissan.co.uk quotes 1496kg for the lightest 370Z, so say 1500kg on the nose.

Porsche Cayman 981 is 1400, so 100kg lighter - another two seat, six cylinder coupe.
Alpine is lighter still although less luggage space I imagine, and four-pot engine.
Going back a way, RX-7 was sub-1300kg in most trims (but yeah, old car so less comparable).

So it's fair that we shouldn't expect a super-light Z car, but at the same time shaving 5-10% by not basing it on a saloon platform would be really helpful to performance, handling, feel - and CO2 emissions.

Couldn’t really compare the RX7 though as the rotary engine gives it a huge weight advantage. The RX8 weighs the same and no doubt the RX9 will too.

[300bhp/ton]

samoht said:

300bhp/ton said:

Seriously what remotely comparable vehicles weigh less?

Didn’t the 370z tip the scales at around 1450kg in its lightest guise.

nissan.co.uk quotes 1496kg for the lightest 370Z, so say 1500kg on the nose.

Porsche Cayman 981 is 1400, so 100kg lighter - another two seat, six cylinder coupe.
Alpine is lighter still although less luggage space I imagine, and four-pot engine.
Going back a way, RX-7 was sub-1300kg in most trims (but yeah, old car so less comparable).

So it's fair that we shouldn't expect a super-light Z car, but at the same time shaving 5-10% by not basing it on a saloon platform would be really helpful to performance, handling, feel - and CO2 emissions.

So as I said nothing comparable.

The Porsche for instance, isn't it 2, 2 and bit times the cost. It's mid engined and isn't the current version a 4 pot anyhow.

Alpine is not remotely similar, it is built as a stripped down featherweight with a small engine. More akin to a Lotus than a 370z.

The 370z is a sporting GT/muscle coupe. In the USA it is pitched against things like the Mustang GT or as a budget alternative to the Corvette. Both of which are considerably heavier.

Even the new Supra (which is still a vastly more expensive vehicle) weighs more, as does the new Z4.

Back in the day I think it was Autocar who did a head to head of the 370z against an Aston V8 Vantage. As on paper they are quite similar cars. The Aston is again considerably heavier.

Interestingly the outgoing Z4 (2nd Gen) also weighed on average slightly more than the 370z too. Even a Ferrari 488 isn't lighter.


Really the only "semi" comparable cars that are lighter are the GT86 and MX-5. And they are only really included as comparisons/alternatives due to how relatively low priced the 370z is vs anything with similar spec. And regardless of personal preferences, the 370z is in a different performance league to the GT86 and MX-5.


Unless you go quite a long way back in time (which is unrealistic due to emissions & safety standards). I'm really struggling to think of any front engine rwd V6 (or similar) mass produced car that really weighed less. BMW Z3 maybe, but then even they weighed 1400kg in the higher specs and bigger engines and were still a lot slower than a 370z.

Even a Porsche 968 with only a 4 pot tipped the scales at 1400kg.

[RacerMike]

They appear to be benchmarking this prototype against an I Pace, a Mercedes eQC and a Supra. Not sure what the make of that, but their mule definitely isn't pure electric.