RE: Lister I-Pace!
Discussion
Turbobanana said:
Here's something I really don't get with EVs: if the primary goal is to provide continued mobility for humans while looking after the planet (ie not killing the wildlife... or us), then why do several cows have to donate their skin to provide our upholstery? Seems a bit contradictory, and I'm not even a vegan.
The SUV-E looks great, but it feels like there are too many "ifs" for it to become a reality. Hope I'm wrong.
agree with this post completely, I think Polestar/Volvo are putting vegan leather into their cars so that's a start I guess..The SUV-E looks great, but it feels like there are too many "ifs" for it to become a reality. Hope I'm wrong.
fernando the frog said:
Turbobanana said:
Here's something I really don't get with EVs: if the primary goal is to provide continued mobility for humans while looking after the planet (ie not killing the wildlife... or us), then why do several cows have to donate their skin to provide our upholstery? Seems a bit contradictory, and I'm not even a vegan.
The SUV-E looks great, but it feels like there are too many "ifs" for it to become a reality. Hope I'm wrong.
agree with this post completely, I think Polestar/Volvo are putting vegan leather into their cars so that's a start I guess..The SUV-E looks great, but it feels like there are too many "ifs" for it to become a reality. Hope I'm wrong.
So actually, EV's are very much leading that very trend...
Max_Torque said:
Given that the motors in the iPace are entirely thermally limited (rather than electro-mechanically limited) , i wait with baited breath to see what numbers they claim for the tune up..
(not to mention the small issue with setting fire to the HV DC wiring harness under continuous high currents.......... ;-)
Respectfully, I'll disagree with the above, and expect Lister to be able to get a peak of around 430-430hp out of the existing motors without touching any hardware. Not arguing that there aren't continuous high-current constraints that will limit continued performance.(not to mention the small issue with setting fire to the HV DC wiring harness under continuous high currents.......... ;-)
The biggest dynamic opportunity in I-PACE is getting a better torque bias to the rear. Having two equally sized motors is the main constraint here, resulting in understeer due to a limit in positive torque bias to the rear. The only way to "fix" this dynamic shortfall would be to fit a much larger motor to the rear (roughly twice the power of the front motor), even if the overall combined power output stays the same. Until that happens, it will still under-rotate in any dynamic handling acceleration event (i.e. throttle application mid or out of a corner)
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
Could they really save 100Kg ? Seems like quite a lot by just using a bit of carbon fibre trim and brakes ?
Just trying to do some napkin calculations here:1) Carbon brakes instead of the standard ones can save (optimistically) 20kg
2) Forged lightweight wheels (instead of slightly heavier aero-efficient wheels) 1kg per wheel, let's say 5kg per car
3) Not clear from the description but if its on adjustable suspension, delete air and replace with coilovers, so lose the air springs, lines, valve block, compressor and reservoir. 30kg?
4) Carbon bonnet - lets say 5kg
I can't see how bumpers and spoiler save more than a couple of kg each as the plastic skins are pretty lightweight as is....
So somewhere there's another 30-40kg which I can't easily place based on the press release. Unless they've started deleting things or there's some "spec adjustment" i.e. they start with a HSE for comparison, and then put some S or SE seats/audio system onto it for lighter weight.
Either way, looks pretty cool I'd say (aside from the strange intake at the top of the bumper), and JLR will be wishing they'd cashed in on this market. Also offering increased personalisation is quite unique in the EV area, so if you want something different, this is one of only a handful of alternatives.
swisstoni said:
I just don’t get the I-Pace at all.
It’s taller than a ‘car’ but lower than an SUV.
So it gets the awkward looks without the benefits.
'Crossovers' are more in demand then proper suvs I think. People mainly want to site a bit higher up, they don't want to enter it into Landrover experience days!It’s taller than a ‘car’ but lower than an SUV.
So it gets the awkward looks without the benefits.
Jimbo89 said:
Green instead of yellow for the spoiler...
definitely not yellow, its too much. But carbon black and so on rather than matching it perhaps.The fact that Lister released it with a yellow is worrying for the company, people making decisions have hit and miss taste.
Edited by hyphen on Monday 4th November 21:16
SuperPav said:
fernando the frog said:
Turbobanana said:
Here's something I really don't get with EVs: if the primary goal is to provide continued mobility for humans while looking after the planet (ie not killing the wildlife... or us), then why do several cows have to donate their skin to provide our upholstery? Seems a bit contradictory, and I'm not even a vegan.
The SUV-E looks great, but it feels like there are too many "ifs" for it to become a reality. Hope I'm wrong.
agree with this post completely, I think Polestar/Volvo are putting vegan leather into their cars so that's a start I guess..The SUV-E looks great, but it feels like there are too many "ifs" for it to become a reality. Hope I'm wrong.
So actually, EV's are very much leading that very trend...
rodericb said:
There are a lot of petrol and diesel powered Benzes getting around with Artico and having been doing so for a few years now. Alcantara is vegan too, so all those Lambos, McLarens and Ferraris getting around with Alcantara interiors could be said to be very much leading that very trend too. The Velar has a fake leather option so why wouldn't the next LR BEV have a "leather free" interior option?
You're right. But unless you specifically aim to deliver a leather-free interior, you still generally end up with some leather surfaces, primarily steering wheel, armrests, gear shifters etc. And most ferrari's/lambos, even with a lot of alcantara, will still have leather bits on the dash/seats because they're not using Alcantara as a way of avoiding leather, they're just using it for its own value to supplement the leather elements.Which is why to be fair it's been relatively easy for OEM's to get people to accept alcantara/dinamica as a "premium" alternative to leather - we've all been already sold it as a sporty/high end material for years.
Max_Torque said:
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
Could they really save 100Kg ? Seems like quite a lot by just using a bit of carbon fibre trim and brakes ?
highly questionable i think! 100 kg is a lot to save, and normally the preserve of "down spec'ing" of racey models, ie A/C delete etc......I suspect at this stage they're testing the water to see if there's any interest. Quite what the actual finished product would be is open for interpretation. I'd be interested to know if they know how to re-cal all the battery power limits, inverter controls and PCM cals......there's a hell of a lot of code that delivers the performance.
JxJ Jr. said:
rodericb said:
There are a lot of petrol and diesel powered Benzes getting around with Artico and having been doing so for a few years now.
Years? Decades. Before being called Artico it was called MB Tex and still is in some markets.
What do new BMWs use? It doesn’t seem like leather to me?
SuperPav said:
Respectfully, I'll disagree with the above, and expect Lister to be able to get a peak of around 430-430hp out of the existing motors without touching any hardware. Not arguing that there aren't continuous high-current constraints that will limit continued performance.
The biggest dynamic opportunity in I-PACE is getting a better torque bias to the rear. Having two equally sized motors is the main constraint here, resulting in understeer due to a limit in positive torque bias to the rear. The only way to "fix" this dynamic shortfall would be to fit a much larger motor to the rear (roughly twice the power of the front motor), even if the overall combined power output stays the same. Until that happens, it will still under-rotate in any dynamic handling acceleration event (i.e. throttle application mid or out of a corner)
Unless they bump the battery voltage, those iPace motors have little left, both before saturation and certainly not long term (anything longer than about 20 seconds). Sure, they might be able to find a short term 30 horses, perhaps even a bit more, but realistically, given that you can only make peak power across a narrow road speed band (no gears!), and the car already has nearly 400 horses, i wouldn't hold my breath for any significant performance gain (the inverter peak current capability is going to limit the max torque at low speed, unless they are going to start swapping out IGBTs and CTs......). And because the motors thermal performance is really fairly bad, once you've used the performance once, you'll be into thermal derate even quicker, especially at high motor speeds, so there will be less than standard power avaliable....The biggest dynamic opportunity in I-PACE is getting a better torque bias to the rear. Having two equally sized motors is the main constraint here, resulting in understeer due to a limit in positive torque bias to the rear. The only way to "fix" this dynamic shortfall would be to fit a much larger motor to the rear (roughly twice the power of the front motor), even if the overall combined power output stays the same. Until that happens, it will still under-rotate in any dynamic handling acceleration event (i.e. throttle application mid or out of a corner)
SuperPav said:
Tesla interiors are completely leather-free. Taycan can be had with a completely leather-free interior. I-PACE can be specced with premium textile interior (Kvadrat fabric, Dinamica, and fake leather) which is ALMOST leather-free. I would bet my house on any next Land Rover BEV to have a completely leather-free interior option as well.
So actually, EV's are very much leading that very trend...
Not according to J May who has recently bought a Model S. Some bits including the steering wheel are still real leather. So actually, EV's are very much leading that very trend...
Max_Torque said:
SuperPav said:
Respectfully, I'll disagree with the above, and expect Lister to be able to get a peak of around 430-430hp out of the existing motors without touching any hardware. Not arguing that there aren't continuous high-current constraints that will limit continued performance.
The biggest dynamic opportunity in I-PACE is getting a better torque bias to the rear. Having two equally sized motors is the main constraint here, resulting in understeer due to a limit in positive torque bias to the rear. The only way to "fix" this dynamic shortfall would be to fit a much larger motor to the rear (roughly twice the power of the front motor), even if the overall combined power output stays the same. Until that happens, it will still under-rotate in any dynamic handling acceleration event (i.e. throttle application mid or out of a corner)
Unless they bump the battery voltage, those iPace motors have little left, both before saturation and certainly not long term (anything longer than about 20 seconds). Sure, they might be able to find a short term 30 horses, perhaps even a bit more, but realistically, given that you can only make peak power across a narrow road speed band (no gears!), and the car already has nearly 400 horses, i wouldn't hold my breath for any significant performance gain (the inverter peak current capability is going to limit the max torque at low speed, unless they are going to start swapping out IGBTs and CTs......). And because the motors thermal performance is really fairly bad, once you've used the performance once, you'll be into thermal derate even quicker, especially at high motor speeds, so there will be less than standard power avaliable....The biggest dynamic opportunity in I-PACE is getting a better torque bias to the rear. Having two equally sized motors is the main constraint here, resulting in understeer due to a limit in positive torque bias to the rear. The only way to "fix" this dynamic shortfall would be to fit a much larger motor to the rear (roughly twice the power of the front motor), even if the overall combined power output stays the same. Until that happens, it will still under-rotate in any dynamic handling acceleration event (i.e. throttle application mid or out of a corner)
Turbobanana said:
As I raised the point about leather interiors, thank you to the many who have enlightened me to the fact that leather these days is not necessarily leather: I genuinely had no idea, but I'm not a new car buyer so am out of touch. Every day is a school day and all that.
It's all good. Manufacturers have never pushed the fact that the materials are synthetic until it became a means to signal your virtue, now they're cautiously trumpeting the fact. With all the fake meat which bleeds going on it can't be long before someone comes up with a way to make fake leather smell like real leather. For the markets which like the smell of leather, of course.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff