RE: Toyota teases new Yaris GR-4
Discussion
Elatino1 said:
At £30k for the full on version I would likely be buying. Much more than that (£35k+) will count me out, which is a shame.
Likewise, though I might think it’s worth the stretch to £32k for the ‘full on’ one. 25,000 of them won’t exactly make it rare though and future values will suffer as a result, so price point will be crucial in this country.But then it’ll probably only be £20-25k in Japan and they’ll sell huge amounts there.
Hard to predict anything regarding future values as the list price isn't know yet.
But what do we know? Sales are supposed to start late 2020. They need to shift 25000 units in twelve months. It's safe to bet it will not be available in the US, Canada or China. That means finding buyers in Europe and rest of Asia.
But In many European markets, the GR4 will come with an eco tax attached (NL, FR, AT, DK, SE ...). And the GR4 has zero appeal outside of a PH audience. It's not going to be bought instead of a normal Yaris just because it's the best spec and the wife or kids deserve it. The Toyota badge isn't "premium" enough to draw status conscious people in. It's also not going to steal any Golf R sales due to its size. The super mini competition (Clio RS, Fiesta ST, Polo GTI et al) isn't selling in mega numbers either. Volume wise, e.g. Mazda found around 14k European buyers for the ND in its first 12 months. Cheaper car. wider market.
Hm. More I think about it -- we might actually be pleasantly surprised by the initial asking price, or at least by the discounts given the later in 2021. Commercially, this is total madness. Kudos to Toyota for this little gift.
Now full on crystal balling -- residuals. Classic question in 2023 could be, 2 year old GR4 or new Fiesta ST? Especially if Toyota stop production after making the needed 25k units, I don't see these falling much under €20k.
TLDR: no idea really
.
But what do we know? Sales are supposed to start late 2020. They need to shift 25000 units in twelve months. It's safe to bet it will not be available in the US, Canada or China. That means finding buyers in Europe and rest of Asia.
But In many European markets, the GR4 will come with an eco tax attached (NL, FR, AT, DK, SE ...). And the GR4 has zero appeal outside of a PH audience. It's not going to be bought instead of a normal Yaris just because it's the best spec and the wife or kids deserve it. The Toyota badge isn't "premium" enough to draw status conscious people in. It's also not going to steal any Golf R sales due to its size. The super mini competition (Clio RS, Fiesta ST, Polo GTI et al) isn't selling in mega numbers either. Volume wise, e.g. Mazda found around 14k European buyers for the ND in its first 12 months. Cheaper car. wider market.
Hm. More I think about it -- we might actually be pleasantly surprised by the initial asking price, or at least by the discounts given the later in 2021. Commercially, this is total madness. Kudos to Toyota for this little gift.
Now full on crystal balling -- residuals. Classic question in 2023 could be, 2 year old GR4 or new Fiesta ST? Especially if Toyota stop production after making the needed 25k units, I don't see these falling much under €20k.
TLDR: no idea really
.Advevo said:
A 4wd rally special is not a track car. My evo 6, and 8 RS was understeering on a dry track on long corners also.
This car is for the twisty’s on a wet surface or go drive on a icy lake there you wil have massive fun.
But if you want track car stay away from 4wd because it s mostly understeery.
There's a lot you can mess around with on toe and camber, not to mention dampers and even tyres that I find difficult to justify what you've said there, especially as, I assume, you have had the RS diff and not fulltime ACD/AYC.This car is for the twisty’s on a wet surface or go drive on a icy lake there you wil have massive fun.
But if you want track car stay away from 4wd because it s mostly understeery.
zb said:
Advevo said:
A 4wd rally special is not a track car. My evo 6, and 8 RS was understeering on a dry track on long corners also.
This car is for the twisty’s on a wet surface or go drive on a icy lake there you wil have massive fun.
But if you want track car stay away from 4wd because it s mostly understeery.
There's a lot you can mess around with on toe and camber, not to mention dampers and even tyres that I find difficult to justify what you've said there, especially as, I assume, you have had the RS diff and not fulltime ACD/AYC.This car is for the twisty’s on a wet surface or go drive on a icy lake there you wil have massive fun.
But if you want track car stay away from 4wd because it s mostly understeery.
The front end always feels like it’s on tip toes to me the way it rotates around the steering inputs.
Back to the Yaris. Having read more on it now and finding out Tommi Mak is driving the project, you can guarantee it’ll be an awesome package. Toyota have been a white good brand for far too long, however the 90’s saw some cool metal - Supra, celica GT4, MR2 Turbo - seems the good times may be back.
Akio Toyoda, the guvnor, is the driving force behind the resurgence of really good Toyota's. The 90's cars were killed off by emissions regs and not replaced as the accountants had taken over at that time. Akio Toyoda took the reins and made a promise that sports cars were coming back. Akio is a full on petrolhead, and things like the Lexus LC500 was his idea. Toyota is finally getting its mojo back, and I am very interested in this little Yaris. The Supra is amazing, but I have an oldish 911 which I have no intention of ever selling, so something to complement that will be more my thing. Bring it on.
I'm not going to lie, the engine choice spoils it for me. Why make something in the spirit of the rally car, and then use a completely unrelated engine? I know the group a days are long gone, but even just the same specs (engine capacity) would have been enough.
It surely can't be because of emissions, or is it Toyota just future proofing their engine? Either way, disappointing.
It surely can't be because of emissions, or is it Toyota just future proofing their engine? Either way, disappointing.
rb26 said:
I'm not going to lie, the engine choice spoils it for me. Why make something in the spirit of the rally car, and then use a completely unrelated engine? I know the group a days are long gone, but even just the same specs (engine capacity) would have been enough.
It surely can't be because of emissions, or is it Toyota just future proofing their engine? Either way, disappointing.
agree, Id love a 4-pot 2 litre with 250-260 bhp and tunable up to say 350 to wake it up properly....cant get really excited by a 3 pot...It surely can't be because of emissions, or is it Toyota just future proofing their engine? Either way, disappointing.
Mintbird said:
agree, Id love a 4-pot 2 litre with 250-260 bhp and tunable up to say 350 to wake it up properly....cant get really excited by a 3 pot...
Sorry but I have to disagree. Its not possible today for a company to release a such an engine and be able to comply with emissions, not only emissons for today but for tomorrow, and this without using some filter particle and such systems. Not to mention that the 3 pot would be lighter than a 4 pot. Its also said that this will be used on R5 rally so Im confident that this engine will live to its name.lopes16 said:
Mintbird said:
agree, Id love a 4-pot 2 litre with 250-260 bhp and tunable up to say 350 to wake it up properly....cant get really excited by a 3 pot...
Sorry but I have to disagree. Its not possible today for a company to release a such an engine and be able to comply with emissions, not only emissons for today but for tomorrow, and this without using some filter particle and such systems. Not to mention that the 3 pot would be lighter than a 4 pot. Its also said that this will be used on R5 rally so Im confident that this engine will live to its name.Then everyone would moan that it weighed 1600kg
I think the 1280kg quoted above is on the heavy side as it is near enough the same as a classic Impreza turbo and while there will be all the modern safety structure it is an aluminium and CF one with a lighter engine. That aside if they get the feel and handling right I'm going to be very tempted to get one, will certainly be a lot cheaper than a 911, Evora or i8.
Weight is one of the interesting figures that's unclear. Couple of numbers floating around.
But 1280 kg (highest I found mentioned) it's not sooo bad I think. Some 70kg lighter than a current Polo GTI DSG for example, or pretty much exact the weight of a 5 door Fiesta ST. Assuming EU weight (incl fluids + 75kg). Roughly 1.3t isn't spectacular, but means they pretty much offset the wide track + AWD bits with the weight saving measures.
I think there's also a 1.2t minimum weight for WRC cars so pushing even further probably has diminishing returns...
Ticks a lot of boxes for me really. Hatch makes it practical. 2+2 is all the space we need. I like smaller cars. Interesting engine. Looks funky. And 70/30 pseudo RWD in a super mini
? Just hoping they don't put a silly price tag on it and that the actual driving is as good as the specs.
But 1280 kg (highest I found mentioned) it's not sooo bad I think. Some 70kg lighter than a current Polo GTI DSG for example, or pretty much exact the weight of a 5 door Fiesta ST. Assuming EU weight (incl fluids + 75kg). Roughly 1.3t isn't spectacular, but means they pretty much offset the wide track + AWD bits with the weight saving measures.
I think there's also a 1.2t minimum weight for WRC cars so pushing even further probably has diminishing returns...
Ticks a lot of boxes for me really. Hatch makes it practical. 2+2 is all the space we need. I like smaller cars. Interesting engine. Looks funky. And 70/30 pseudo RWD in a super mini
? Just hoping they don't put a silly price tag on it and that the actual driving is as good as the specs.Elatino1 said:
Toltec said:
I think the 1280kg quoted above is on the heavy side as it is near enough the same as a classic Impreza turbo
A classic impreza turbo feels like a very light car. For a modern awd car to come in at the same weight I would say is quite impressive even if it is smaller.Toltec said:
Elatino1 said:
Toltec said:
I think the 1280kg quoted above is on the heavy side as it is near enough the same as a classic Impreza turbo
A classic impreza turbo feels like a very light car. For a modern awd car to come in at the same weight I would say is quite impressive even if it is smaller.Only the very first Impreza was light, a bit of a deathtrap and while light with similar power (STI/22B), in todays money it was a much more expensive proposition.
All in all looks very promising this Yaris.
Someone know how the 4wd system works? Is it a kind of haldex? But to be true 30:70 the rear axle must be overspeeded a bit, like with Focus RS / A45S?
Two mechanical lsd front and back is very promising though nevertheless.
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