RE: Afraid of driving a Ferrari? The Roma is for you
Discussion
MDL111 said:
yup I remember when they replaced the last Quattroporte with a car that was available as a diesel - killed it for me personally (and the design looked much less special too). Highly subjective, but when they did that I thought "well now I might as well buy a [objectively better] German car, M5 or the like"
I completely agree. The Germans have pretty much monopolised that sector of car, with the broad range they produce at a fairly consistent build quality up from the base specs (which you could argue are also much more accesible than even a diesel Maserati) right up to your M5/C63 etc, Maserati were never going to be able to compare and I think it de-valued the brand attempting to compete with the big German manufacturers in that sector.I don't think the previous Maserati's were appealing because they were the fastest, or the best build quality. With a Quattroporte for example, I believe what made it appealing was that it was a luxury saloon that looked a lot more special than its rivals, sounded like a supercar, but had a lovely interior the Italians are known for. It was characteristically Italian and did things that almost all new cars can not do.. and what made the previous era of Maserati special in my eyes, was the way they can evoke emotion, they feel special, it wasn't a particular thing or feature on the car that make it that way, its an amalgamation of the whole thing as a package. All in my opinion of course!
FA57REN said:
"but they are a bit afraid of driving a Ferrari or driving a sports car."
Expect: compact modern-era Dino with 250bhp and basic but comfortable trim
Plot twist: 620bhp behemoth with gadgets galore a d which costs more than a house
I don't think they quite met their design brief...
Whilst I agree a smaller, less powerful, entry level Ferrari like the Dino does appeal hugely, I don’t think that was ever the design brief for this car.Expect: compact modern-era Dino with 250bhp and basic but comfortable trim
Plot twist: 620bhp behemoth with gadgets galore a d which costs more than a house
I don't think they quite met their design brief...
The intention was for a comfortable, easy to use, luxury car rather than a sports car. More like a Mercedes GT rather than a 488.
They are trying to broaden the appeal of the brand in readiness for their SUV offensive ( or offensive SUV if you like
).The California & Portifino have unlocked this new audience and this car will continue the charge.
In essence it’s the Porsche model.
You could say it dilutes the brand but if it’s what they need to do to continue making exciting sports cars then I guess we have to accept it.
Interesting that all these new models were originally proposed as Maserati’s. If Maserati had been a stronger brand (& managed better) then would Ferrari have split from the group and gone down this path?
Anyway, I still think this car looks and sounds great from the spec sheet. I hope it drives well too.
Edited by Maldini35 on Friday 15th November 10:51
FA57REN said:
"but they are a bit afraid of driving a Ferrari or driving a sports car."
Expect: compact modern-era Dino with 250bhp and basic but comfortable trim
Plot twist: 620bhp behemoth with gadgets galore a d which costs more than a house
I don't think they quite met their design brief...
250bhp Ferrari? You realise this is 2019? Diesel hatchbacks have 250bhp. Lightweight sportscars have 400bhp. If..IF..Ferrari launch a Dino under their current range it will have to out punch the run-of-the-mill competition by a mile to be even vaguely considered.Expect: compact modern-era Dino with 250bhp and basic but comfortable trim
Plot twist: 620bhp behemoth with gadgets galore a d which costs more than a house
I don't think they quite met their design brief...
Ares said:
FA57REN said:
"but they are a bit afraid of driving a Ferrari or driving a sports car."
Expect: compact modern-era Dino with 250bhp and basic but comfortable trim
Plot twist: 620bhp behemoth with gadgets galore a d which costs more than a house
I don't think they quite met their design brief...
250bhp Ferrari? You realise this is 2019? Diesel hatchbacks have 250bhp. Lightweight sportscars have 400bhp. If..IF..Ferrari launch a Dino under their current range it will have to out punch the run-of-the-mill competition by a mile to be even vaguely considered.Expect: compact modern-era Dino with 250bhp and basic but comfortable trim
Plot twist: 620bhp behemoth with gadgets galore a d which costs more than a house
I don't think they quite met their design brief...
ab90 said:
MDL111 said:
yup I remember when they replaced the last Quattroporte with a car that was available as a diesel - killed it for me personally (and the design looked much less special too). Highly subjective, but when they did that I thought "well now I might as well buy a [objectively better] German car, M5 or the like"
I completely agree. The Germans have pretty much monopolised that sector of car, with the broad range they produce at a fairly consistent build quality up from the base specs (which you could argue are also much more accesible than even a diesel Maserati) right up to your M5/C63 etc, Maserati were never going to be able to compare and I think it de-valued the brand attempting to compete with the big German manufacturers in that sector.I don't think the previous Maserati's were appealing because they were the fastest, or the best build quality. With a Quattroporte for example, I believe what made it appealing was that it was a luxury saloon that looked a lot more special than its rivals, sounded like a supercar, but had a lovely interior the Italians are known for. It was characteristically Italian and did things that almost all new cars can not do.. and what made the previous era of Maserati special in my eyes, was the way they can evoke emotion, they feel special, it wasn't a particular thing or feature on the car that make it that way, its an amalgamation of the whole thing as a package. All in my opinion of course!
MDL111 said:
ab90 said:
MDL111 said:
yup I remember when they replaced the last Quattroporte with a car that was available as a diesel - killed it for me personally (and the design looked much less special too). Highly subjective, but when they did that I thought "well now I might as well buy a [objectively better] German car, M5 or the like"
I completely agree. The Germans have pretty much monopolised that sector of car, with the broad range they produce at a fairly consistent build quality up from the base specs (which you could argue are also much more accesible than even a diesel Maserati) right up to your M5/C63 etc, Maserati were never going to be able to compare and I think it de-valued the brand attempting to compete with the big German manufacturers in that sector.I don't think the previous Maserati's were appealing because they were the fastest, or the best build quality. With a Quattroporte for example, I believe what made it appealing was that it was a luxury saloon that looked a lot more special than its rivals, sounded like a supercar, but had a lovely interior the Italians are known for. It was characteristically Italian and did things that almost all new cars can not do.. and what made the previous era of Maserati special in my eyes, was the way they can evoke emotion, they feel special, it wasn't a particular thing or feature on the car that make it that way, its an amalgamation of the whole thing as a package. All in my opinion of course!
I SO nearly got in a Ghibli S but for the financials. It was slower, less fun, less well built, less practical, thirstier and more expensive than the German's I drove (M3/C63s/etc), but the way it emotionally connected and sounded was fantastic. It was a true 'look back' and 'want to do the journey again' car.
Lovely looking car, however without any badging there is absolutely nothing to show that it's a Ferrari.
In the launch grey, it looks like an Aston Martin ........ which at the end of the day, is about as good a compliment that it's possible to get.
Thinking out loud, wonder who owns the rights to all the wonderful old names that used to exist? This car would be a fascinating proposition as a Bizarini (by Ferrari) spin off brand, for example.
In the launch grey, it looks like an Aston Martin ........ which at the end of the day, is about as good a compliment that it's possible to get.
Thinking out loud, wonder who owns the rights to all the wonderful old names that used to exist? This car would be a fascinating proposition as a Bizarini (by Ferrari) spin off brand, for example.
FA57REN said:
GranCab said:
I didn't realise you oversaw Ferrari's design briefs ... wow you must be really annoyed they didn't follow this one.
Do you think they've done a good job meeting the publicly-stated specification?Why is 620bhp and 500+Nm appropriate for a RWD car aimed specifically at sports car newbies?
Go and look up a Dino or Daytona to see what Ferrari used to be about.
Edited by FA57REN on Friday 15th November 09:57
I bought a Dino in 1982 and a good friend had a Daytona at the same time.
Modern sports cars are not and never will be specified, designed or built to 1970's standards. Ferrari, as with all other premium manufacturers, build what suits the current climate.
If you want a 200ish BHP new small sports car I do believe Mazda will sell you one.
ab90 said:
MDL111 said:
yup I remember when they replaced the last Quattroporte with a car that was available as a diesel - killed it for me personally (and the design looked much less special too). Highly subjective, but when they did that I thought "well now I might as well buy a [objectively better] German car, M5 or the like"
I completely agree. The Germans have pretty much monopolised that sector of car, with the broad range they produce at a fairly consistent build quality up from the base specs (which you could argue are also much more accesible than even a diesel Maserati) right up to your M5/C63 etc, Maserati were never going to be able to compare and I think it de-valued the brand attempting to compete with the big German manufacturers in that sector.I don't think the previous Maserati's were appealing because they were the fastest, or the best build quality. With a Quattroporte for example, I believe what made it appealing was that it was a luxury saloon that looked a lot more special than its rivals, sounded like a supercar, but had a lovely interior the Italians are known for. It was characteristically Italian and did things that almost all new cars can not do.. and what made the previous era of Maserati special in my eyes, was the way they can evoke emotion, they feel special, it wasn't a particular thing or feature on the car that make it that way, its an amalgamation of the whole thing as a package. All in my opinion of course!
ab90 said:
Likewise.. still holding out that they do the Alfieri, and that it actually looks like the concept. I saw they announced they are launching something early next year. (As you said, I expect it will be at Geneva.) So lets hope its that.
V6 hybrid could work, but its a Maserati, it needs to sound the part, as well as having character. I've got high hopes, but I think the GT replacement will make or break them as a brand now. They are hanging on, just.. but another model that's like the Ghibli would kill the brand I think. Maserati's aren't German rep mobiles, they need to get back to their roots, and what always made them so appealing in the past.
Back to this Roma thing, it just doesn't look like a Ferrari. It's a good looking car, but doesn't shout Ferrari to me. There isn't enough lines through the body like there was with the Pininfarina cars, it looks a bit 'soft' and to me those don't look like Ferrari rear lights. Not a fan of the front grill either, it looks like a plastic washing basket. Will be interested to see one in the flesh to properly pass judgement.
Try looking at Maserati.com - its May - so too late for Geneva, and likely to be mid engine V8 replacement for the GranTurismo from what I’ve seen elsewhereV6 hybrid could work, but its a Maserati, it needs to sound the part, as well as having character. I've got high hopes, but I think the GT replacement will make or break them as a brand now. They are hanging on, just.. but another model that's like the Ghibli would kill the brand I think. Maserati's aren't German rep mobiles, they need to get back to their roots, and what always made them so appealing in the past.
Back to this Roma thing, it just doesn't look like a Ferrari. It's a good looking car, but doesn't shout Ferrari to me. There isn't enough lines through the body like there was with the Pininfarina cars, it looks a bit 'soft' and to me those don't look like Ferrari rear lights. Not a fan of the front grill either, it looks like a plastic washing basket. Will be interested to see one in the flesh to properly pass judgement.
MDL111 said:
the above describes very well why I wanted (and actually still do) the last generation of Quattroporte or a Gran Sport. The new ones do nothing for me, much rather buy an Alpina then (or as above any of the German group of cars, but that is then very much a head decision as there is no real "I want this in my life" type feeling with those)
Ares said:
You've summed it up for me too. Its head Vs heart.
I SO nearly got in a Ghibli S but for the financials. It was slower, less fun, less well built, less practical, thirstier and more expensive than the German's I drove (M3/C63s/etc), but the way it emotionally connected and sounded was fantastic. It was a true 'look back' and 'want to do the journey again' car.
Exactly that chaps. The newer German cars in that sort of sector are very, well er.. German. They do their intended purpose extremely well, and are built to last, but personally they leave me a bit cold. They're almost sterile, and seriously lack the soul that you get with Ferrari's/Maserati's etc. But there is no denying they do their design purpose extremely well and better than most in fact. But sadly I think all cars are heading this way and becoming a bit 'numb', albeit some are dragging their heels a bit !I SO nearly got in a Ghibli S but for the financials. It was slower, less fun, less well built, less practical, thirstier and more expensive than the German's I drove (M3/C63s/etc), but the way it emotionally connected and sounded was fantastic. It was a true 'look back' and 'want to do the journey again' car.
Here's to hoping that these newer Italian cars are staying true to that proven recipe that even though they aren't the fastest, most practical, economic or sensible things to drive and have eye watering running costs(Even compared to other cars in the same class) there is something about them that despite this you still really want one, and as soon as you're driving them the costs involved are irrelevant because of the way they make you feel. Very much a head vs heart. But that said, the noise of these newer turbocharged Ferrari's doesn't make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up quite the way that the older naturally aspirated V8's and V12's do. And don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who bangs on about naturally aspirated everything 'back in the day', but these type of cars for me characteristically have these types of engines (Yes, I know the F40 had turbos!!)
For me, putting aside the classics, the best period of these cars was early/mid 2000's up until maybe 2010ish, maybe a bit later with a few exceptions (F12 is one example). Ferrari's and Maserati's and the like all had big naturally aspirated screaming V8 & V12 engines, they were true to their original brand ethos, they all had a sort of USP in that sector and it was pretty much at the peak of technology before all the intrusive driver aids started being introduced. They had some driver aids, but they could still bite you if you weren't careful! The cars were more exclusive, and you didn't have them releasing so many models, and I think if back then you had told them that Maserati, Aston Martin and Lamborghini would make an SUV (Or a Maserati with a Diesel engine!) they would have laughed at you.
Even the Germans that I called 'numb' and 'sterile' were building some bonkers stuff then.. M5's with V10's, RS6's with the same bar a couple of turbos for good measure, C63's with that 6.2.. reminiscent of the more classic AMG and M cars when they were really special and groundbreaking for saloon/estate cars to have such power, and you could spot one a mile off because they looked like nothing else the brand produced. There was much more 'want' with these cars than any of the newer ones.
Anyway, just my opinion... enough rambling!
Davo456gt said:
Try looking at Maserati.com - its May - so too late for Geneva, and likely to be mid engine V8 replacement for the GranTurismo from what I’ve seen elsewhere
I thought I'd seen May somewhere. Interesting, too early for Frankfurt as well. Unless they have one to show for Geneva and orders open May?I'd be ecstatic and extremely interested if it was a mid engined V8(Dreaming of a baby MC12!) but surely if it was it wouldn't really be a replacement for the Granturismo, being that it was a big front engined GT rather than a mid engined sports car?
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