RE: BMW i4: 530hp, 372 miles of range confirmed
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
while the US is still fighting wars over the control of oil.
"oil imports into Europe increased from 11 million barrels per day to 15 million"https://www.statista.com/statistics/265303/oil-imp...
"US will soon threaten to topple Saudi Arabia as the world’s top oil exporter"
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/11/us-threatens-to-to...
"The US still accounts for nearly 70% of NATO’s military expenditures"
https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/14/nato-pledge-wh...
The i3 is a great product, overengineered with great design. It showcases BMW tech very well. EV’s are an intermediate technology, the hydrogen fuel cell is the more rational alternative. MB,BMW and Toyota have fuel cell tech ready to go since the beginning of the 2000’s. The Mirai is in its second generation allready. Of course they will milk the EV for all its worth, but it will be a short lived thing.
DonkeyApple said:
It’s probably all quite regional and also socio-economic but they are steadily growing in number. It’s just that given their cost you only really see them where there is quite a bit of excess wealth.
Things like the i3, iPace and Tesla’s are common sites now in central London and in the Cotswolds. I’ve not really noticed any other EVs but they are probably there but just not standing out so much.
Most of my peers, like myself, are fully aware of EVs and have a total expectation to buy one as a replacement vehicle when it makes sense to do so. Most of my peer’s children and my own are as aware of Tesla’s as I would have been of Ferrari’s etc at their age. My children are 8 & 9, girls and have learned about electric cars from their engagement with their outside world, not from me, I have taught them about the merits of post war pushrod V8s over crappy diesels.
Yesterday I drove into London and noticed half a dozen Tesla S on the M40 and a couple of iPaces. All pottering along at 55 in the middle lane doing what those sort of punters like to do on the only motorway in the UK where 90 is still quite normal and most people still keep left unless overtaking. A year ago I probably would have seen one Tesla hypermiling. Once in London I guess I noticed nearly a dozen i3s just getting from the M1 to St John’s Wood.
Out in the Cotswolds more and more establishments and holiday rentals are installing charging to attract customers and the various premium EVs are now common sites.
Stray to more normal parts of the UK and they are still rare sites.
People are right that EVs aren’t really selling in any kind of relevant numbers but other people are also right that this is changing very rapidly.
Some time in the next decade we will arguably reach a figure of 50% of new car sales being EVs and about another decade further beyond that around 50% of carsbon the road being EVs. It’s not going to stop now, there is too much legislation, too much capital from manufacturers committed.
What’s not going to happen is any sudden change regardless of the screaming demands of the religious fanatics, it’s going to happen at the pace dictated by the natural pace that it takes to bring lithium production sites on stream, the speed it takes to raise the capital, the speed to build the factories and ultimately to find the customers with enough spending power etc. And what is also not going to happen is the genie being put back in the bottle.
I’m midlands based, so a decent trek away from London and the Home Counties. Those I know with them are on better than average wages, but hardly the classic PH captain of industry types. The popularity of EVs in and around London is no doubt a result of the congestion charges.Things like the i3, iPace and Tesla’s are common sites now in central London and in the Cotswolds. I’ve not really noticed any other EVs but they are probably there but just not standing out so much.
Most of my peers, like myself, are fully aware of EVs and have a total expectation to buy one as a replacement vehicle when it makes sense to do so. Most of my peer’s children and my own are as aware of Tesla’s as I would have been of Ferrari’s etc at their age. My children are 8 & 9, girls and have learned about electric cars from their engagement with their outside world, not from me, I have taught them about the merits of post war pushrod V8s over crappy diesels.
Yesterday I drove into London and noticed half a dozen Tesla S on the M40 and a couple of iPaces. All pottering along at 55 in the middle lane doing what those sort of punters like to do on the only motorway in the UK where 90 is still quite normal and most people still keep left unless overtaking. A year ago I probably would have seen one Tesla hypermiling. Once in London I guess I noticed nearly a dozen i3s just getting from the M1 to St John’s Wood.
Out in the Cotswolds more and more establishments and holiday rentals are installing charging to attract customers and the various premium EVs are now common sites.
Stray to more normal parts of the UK and they are still rare sites.
People are right that EVs aren’t really selling in any kind of relevant numbers but other people are also right that this is changing very rapidly.
Some time in the next decade we will arguably reach a figure of 50% of new car sales being EVs and about another decade further beyond that around 50% of carsbon the road being EVs. It’s not going to stop now, there is too much legislation, too much capital from manufacturers committed.
What’s not going to happen is any sudden change regardless of the screaming demands of the religious fanatics, it’s going to happen at the pace dictated by the natural pace that it takes to bring lithium production sites on stream, the speed it takes to raise the capital, the speed to build the factories and ultimately to find the customers with enough spending power etc. And what is also not going to happen is the genie being put back in the bottle.
I agree that it’s not going to be an overnight thing, but amongst people I know and work with it’s interesting to see how many are making the switch and making it work for them.
The changes in BIK are also going to make them much more attractive for company car drivers. If the i3s or e-Golf had been on my company car list earlier this year, I would gave cancelled the order for my M140i and stayed in the car scheme because it would have been so cheap.
Court_S said:
That is what I find odd too. They were ahead of MB and VAG with both of these cars but failed to really develop them. Yes the range has improved on the i3, but they seem to be happy to let the interesting i cars die out.
I suspect that part of the reason was that neither were all that successful when they came out and for quite some time after. That lack of sales would have given input into the pace at which they moved forward. It’s clear that in terms of development they carried in but they saw no merit in continuing to launch product that the market wasn’t interested in buying.
It’s probably only in the last 12/18 months that this has begun to properly change and you can see that the new i3 is selling much better than the early one did and the Mini is due out soon with lots of EVs to follow.
Just because a company isn’t manufacturing millions of products which it can’t find consumers for doesn’t mean that the company isn’t investing and developing of has dropped the ball. BMW clearly hasn’t dropped the ball at all but has learned that quirky does work so well with their brand and is now doing conventional with the Mini.
Court_S said:
I’m midlands based, so a decent trek away from London and the Home Counties. Those I know with them are on better than average wages, but hardly the classic PH captain of industry types. The popularity of EVs in and around London is no doubt a result of the congestion charges.
I agree that it’s not going to be an overnight thing, but amongst people I know and work with it’s interesting to see how many are making the switch and making it work for them.
The changes in BIK are also going to make them much more attractive for company car drivers. If the i3s or e-Golf had been on my company car list earlier this year, I would gave cancelled the order for my M140i and stayed in the car scheme because it would have been so cheap.
Don’t forget that the Midlands is in the midst of an economic boom compared to much of the UK and has always been an affluent region in comparison also. I also Aus get the feeling that there is also much more true disposable income than London as mortgage levels are nowhere near as big. Most of my clients up there get given their house as a wedding present so have huge disposable incomes. It’s also an area of higher levels of general education that many others. I agree that it’s not going to be an overnight thing, but amongst people I know and work with it’s interesting to see how many are making the switch and making it work for them.
The changes in BIK are also going to make them much more attractive for company car drivers. If the i3s or e-Golf had been on my company car list earlier this year, I would gave cancelled the order for my M140i and stayed in the car scheme because it would have been so cheap.
It all makes it strange that they still can’t speak properly.
The iPace is built there and I see quite a few of those south of Birmingham. And the i3.
I think the last 18 months has seen quite a cultural shift among consumers with the money to buy these types of car. Outside of affluent cities this type of consumer tends to be older in order to have accumulated the wealth and more and more are evaluating EVs logically and where they work nearly as well as ICEbor better than ICE the number of people are making the switch.
The quirky isn't designed to sell in large numbers, it's a marketing exercise designed to ease the consumer into accepting the new idea in the mainstream. Think Renault Avantime to prepare buyers for the then forthcoming Mégane with the big arse.
I doubt BMW made any money on the i3 or i8, but I imagine the groundwork they've laid means they will on the MINI and BMW models that follow.
I doubt BMW made any money on the i3 or i8, but I imagine the groundwork they've laid means they will on the MINI and BMW models that follow.
had ham said:
Came onto thread to offer some insight (consultant in the Auto Industry for 20+ years), see Rob Dickinson spouting his usual Tesla/EV bulls
t, and now leaving thread.
You cannot hold rational, objective, and informed conversation with fanbois.
You seem to follow me around somewhat, I think you are the fanboy! t, and now leaving thread.You cannot hold rational, objective, and informed conversation with fanbois.
RobDickinson said:
had ham said:
Came onto thread to offer some insight (consultant in the Auto Industry for 20+ years), see Rob Dickinson spouting his usual Tesla/EV bullst, and now leaving thread.
You cannot hold rational, objective, and informed conversation with fanbois.
You seem to follow me around somewhat, I think you are the fanboy! t, and now leaving thread.You cannot hold rational, objective, and informed conversation with fanbois.
You make the average Macolyte sound like a Doubting Thomas!
DonkeyApple said:
Court_S said:
I’m midlands based, so a decent trek away from London and the Home Counties. Those I know with them are on better than average wages, but hardly the classic PH captain of industry types. The popularity of EVs in and around London is no doubt a result of the congestion charges.
I agree that it’s not going to be an overnight thing, but amongst people I know and work with it’s interesting to see how many are making the switch and making it work for them.
The changes in BIK are also going to make them much more attractive for company car drivers. If the i3s or e-Golf had been on my company car list earlier this year, I would gave cancelled the order for my M140i and stayed in the car scheme because it would have been so cheap.
Don’t forget that the Midlands is in the midst of an economic boom compared to much of the UK and has always been an affluent region in comparison also. I also Aus get the feeling that there is also much more true disposable income than London as mortgage levels are nowhere near as big. Most of my clients up there get given their house as a wedding present so have huge disposable incomes. It’s also an area of higher levels of general education that many others. I agree that it’s not going to be an overnight thing, but amongst people I know and work with it’s interesting to see how many are making the switch and making it work for them.
The changes in BIK are also going to make them much more attractive for company car drivers. If the i3s or e-Golf had been on my company car list earlier this year, I would gave cancelled the order for my M140i and stayed in the car scheme because it would have been so cheap.
It all makes it strange that they still can’t speak properly.
The iPace is built there and I see quite a few of those south of Birmingham. And the i3.
I think the last 18 months has seen quite a cultural shift among consumers with the money to buy these types of car. Outside of affluent cities this type of consumer tends to be older in order to have accumulated the wealth and more and more are evaluating EVs logically and where they work nearly as well as ICEbor better than ICE the number of people are making the switch.
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
Court_S said:
The midlands is bigger than Birmingham and I don’t know anyone who has been gifted a house. Everyone I know / work with has bought a house via fairly normal ways (I.e. a mortgage).
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires. And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
flatso said:
EV’s are an intermediate technology, the hydrogen fuel cell is the more rational alternative.
I don’t agree with this at all. Hydrogen is just another ‘dumb mechanical’ approach in the same way refined fuels are.
These solutions offer no ability to introduce intelligence to the local and macro scale management of energy.
A fully integrated grid and EV network with bidirectional communication AND energy flow between the system elements is far superior.
Brake energy recovery is a significant part of the improved efficiency that EVs offer, how do you propose to incorporate that into your Hydrogen solution? The answer is to add a battery...
Add in the intrinsic simplicity and lack of any real maintenance requirement for the vehicle powertrains themselves and it is so glaringly obvious that EV is the only way forward.
Battery technology is already good enough for most people’s needs. The next 10 years will see significant improvements to energy density, cost and recyclability, eliminating all the barriers to entry that EVs currently face.
What exactly will the point of the fuel cell be then?
And let’s not forget the significant technological challenges (leakage, storage, safety, distribution, cell lifespan/degradation, etc.) that hydrogen still has to overcome are orders of magnitude more difficult to solve anyway.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires.
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
As a company car they’re an absolute no brainer at least in the short term. I think people will make compromises to save the cash. Stuff like the e-Golf instantly feels very familiar so will soften the change for many. That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
DonkeyApple said:
Court_S said:
The midlands is bigger than Birmingham and I don’t know anyone who has been gifted a house. Everyone I know / work with has bought a house via fairly normal ways (I.e. a mortgage).
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires. And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
GT119 said:
flatso said:
EV’s are an intermediate technology, the hydrogen fuel cell is the more rational alternative.
I don’t agree with this at all. Hydrogen is just another ‘dumb mechanical’ approach in the same way refined fuels are.
These solutions offer no ability to introduce intelligence to the local and macro scale management of energy.
A fully integrated grid and EV network with bidirectional communication AND energy flow between the system elements is far superior.
Brake energy recovery is a significant part of the improved efficiency that EVs offer, how do you propose to incorporate that into your Hydrogen solution? The answer is to add a battery...
Add in the intrinsic simplicity and lack of any real maintenance requirement for the vehicle powertrains themselves and it is so glaringly obvious that EV is the only way forward.
Battery technology is already good enough for most people’s needs. The next 10 years will see significant improvements to energy density, cost and recyclability, eliminating all the barriers to entry that EVs currently face.
What exactly will the point of the fuel cell be then?
And let’s not forget the significant technological challenges (leakage, storage, safety, distribution, cell lifespan/degradation, etc.) that hydrogen still has to overcome are orders of magnitude more difficult to solve anyway.
The only intermediate technology involved in transportation is the Li battery not the EV itself. Electric motors are here to stay and will slowly and steadily replace the internal combustion engine as economics permit. The big, clunky and inefficient battery packs that are needed at the moment tonpower them is the bit that will get dumped the moment the superior alternative has been made commercially viable.
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Court_S said:
The midlands is bigger than Birmingham and I don’t know anyone who has been gifted a house. Everyone I know / work with has bought a house via fairly normal ways (I.e. a mortgage).
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires. And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
People lower down the income scale don't buy brand new BMW 5 series either, but they can buy one anywhere up to 30 years old from a few hundred quid upwards, oldest Model S is about what, five years old and is still 30 grand and up.
Leafs and Stuff don't appear on the radar for a lot as though they are good, they don't have the same desirability.
Also, further you go down the wealth strata, people are more concerned about potential problems in anything different, double whammy as generally the stuff is out of warranty and a wonky Tesla you cant just whip down to Dave who does BMWs and has all the kit.
I remember the advice to avoid anything German because of expensive parts, anything in the eighties that had fuel injection, more than two valves per cylinder or a turbo was regarded as witchcraft, then fuel injection and turbo specialists appeared.
We are better served now due to stuff like YouTube, loads of folk pulling all manner of exotic cars apart, the knowledge goes from the manufacturers into the public domain, prices of the cars themselves and parts drop, then people become comfortable in buying one, its a long drawn out process.
Watershed moment will be, seeing your first Barried Tesla Model S in the wild, ev specilaists springing up, a company called something like "B and S EV battery services" springing up on a trading estate in various towns, catering for battery refreshes on aging EV's, Ev's getting nicked for their spares/batteries.
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