RE: BMW i4: 530hp, 372 miles of range confirmed
Discussion
J4CKO said:
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Court_S said:
The midlands is bigger than Birmingham and I don’t know anyone who has been gifted a house. Everyone I know / work with has bought a house via fairly normal ways (I.e. a mortgage).
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires. And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
People lower down the income scale don't buy brand new BMW 5 series either, but they can buy one anywhere up to 30 years old from a few hundred quid upwards, oldest Model S is about what, five years old and is still 30 grand and up.
Leafs and Stuff don't appear on the radar for a lot as though they are good, they don't have the same desirability.
Also, further you go down the wealth strata, people are more concerned about potential problems in anything different, double whammy as generally the stuff is out of warranty and a wonky Tesla you cant just whip down to Dave who does BMWs and has all the kit.
I remember the advice to avoid anything German because of expensive parts, anything in the eighties that had fuel injection, more than two valves per cylinder or a turbo was regarded as witchcraft, then fuel injection and turbo specialists appeared.
We are better served now due to stuff like YouTube, loads of folk pulling all manner of exotic cars apart, the knowledge goes from the manufacturers into the public domain, prices of the cars themselves and parts drop, then people become comfortable in buying one, its a long drawn out process.
Watershed moment will be, seeing your first Barried Tesla Model S in the wild, ev specilaists springing up, a company called something like "B and S EV battery services" springing up on a trading estate in various towns, catering for battery refreshes on aging EV's, Ev's getting nicked for their spares/batteries.
There are a few places in the US building Tesla-powered conversions.
I know someone who built a BEV NA MX5 years ago. You may need a bit of specialist knowledge (ok, he is a PhD in EE) but it won't be long until home bodgers or your local back-street garage are having a go.
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Court_S said:
The midlands is bigger than Birmingham and I don’t know anyone who has been gifted a house. Everyone I know / work with has bought a house via fairly normal ways (I.e. a mortgage).
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires. And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
I agree real time scale. Most people I know who have a Leaf have bought an old one to use as their station car. For just doing 10 miles a day and getting knocked around in a car park they represent great value for such people with other cars who keep a shed alongside them.
The i3 is now on my radar to replace the family hatchback, a car which is just about to turn 30k miles in its tenth year. £15k for something that will will cost close to zero to run and be much cleaner is an easy trade apart from the fact that the current car probably has another ten years of life in it
DonkeyApple said:
What isn’t going to change is the terminal decline of the performance ICE. That’s pretty much dead. Legislation is against them, EVs are faster and at the premium price point these types of car sell at an EV is better value.
Performance ICE is dead. Generic, utility box ICE is still alive and kicking and has to be because it’s going to take years for EVs to be able to be built in sufficient numbers and at a low enough price to our compete them. Even in the affluent UK.
I'm not sure that is true other than legislation killing it off. Demand remains strong imho albeit every year that passes the cars become harder to love due to legislation. I couldn't give a fPerformance ICE is dead. Generic, utility box ICE is still alive and kicking and has to be because it’s going to take years for EVs to be able to be built in sufficient numbers and at a low enough price to our compete them. Even in the affluent UK.
k that the TM3 gets to 60 in just over 3s and I'm confident that I'm not alone there.TX.
Augustus Windsock said:
We need a better charging infrastructure but the other issue is how much of this electrickety will be produced by ‘clean’ methods and how much by fossil fuels?
In essence, this doesn't matter. Why? Because then the target shifts to just being "make the national grid green". With more energy from green sources, every electric car (and electric lamp, stereo, washing machine, train, traffic light) gets a 'free' upgrade and pollutes less.LimaDelta said:
J4CKO said:
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Court_S said:
The midlands is bigger than Birmingham and I don’t know anyone who has been gifted a house. Everyone I know / work with has bought a house via fairly normal ways (I.e. a mortgage).
And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Yup. I’m also talking about fairly normal professional people. I use the term affluent because in relative terms to the spending power of the majority they are. They have houses, pensions and excess income with which to indulge desires. And no issues speaking for me as I’m from the south east originally
The point I was trying to make is that those who I know making the change to EV’s are fairly normal professional people with not super rich etc.
Edited by Court_S on Thursday 21st November 09:27
That’s one of the keys to the BIK changes, it’s going to grant access to EVs to the average income earners who have access to domestic charging.
People lower down the income scale don't buy brand new BMW 5 series either, but they can buy one anywhere up to 30 years old from a few hundred quid upwards, oldest Model S is about what, five years old and is still 30 grand and up.
Leafs and Stuff don't appear on the radar for a lot as though they are good, they don't have the same desirability.
Also, further you go down the wealth strata, people are more concerned about potential problems in anything different, double whammy as generally the stuff is out of warranty and a wonky Tesla you cant just whip down to Dave who does BMWs and has all the kit.
I remember the advice to avoid anything German because of expensive parts, anything in the eighties that had fuel injection, more than two valves per cylinder or a turbo was regarded as witchcraft, then fuel injection and turbo specialists appeared.
We are better served now due to stuff like YouTube, loads of folk pulling all manner of exotic cars apart, the knowledge goes from the manufacturers into the public domain, prices of the cars themselves and parts drop, then people become comfortable in buying one, its a long drawn out process.
Watershed moment will be, seeing your first Barried Tesla Model S in the wild, ev specilaists springing up, a company called something like "B and S EV battery services" springing up on a trading estate in various towns, catering for battery refreshes on aging EV's, Ev's getting nicked for their spares/batteries.
There are a few places in the US building Tesla-powered conversions.
I know someone who built a BEV NA MX5 years ago. You may need a bit of specialist knowledge (ok, he is a PhD in EE) but it won't be long until home bodgers or your local back-street garage are having a go.
blueacid said:
Augustus Windsock said:
We need a better charging infrastructure but the other issue is how much of this electrickety will be produced by ‘clean’ methods and how much by fossil fuels?
In essence, this doesn't matter. Why? Because then the target shifts to just being "make the national grid green". With more energy from green sources, every electric car (and electric lamp, stereo, washing machine, train, traffic light) gets a 'free' upgrade and pollutes less.I know there are biodiesels and other renewable fuels, but they still rely on burning it and emitting the byproducts into the air locally.
An EV can run completely without any tailpipe emissions on entirely clean renewable energy, there are less braking products emitted as well as a lot of the braking is regenerative via the motor, that is the ultimate aim, long lived EV's running efficiently on renewable energy, preferably with the **option** for them to self drive safely. Its a few years off but a start has been made.
Hopefully the production and recycling side of things will be refined so they aren't such an impact on the environment.
I know mining for battery materials is destructive, but then so is drilling for and exporting oil. Also, with recycling I cant imagine used battery packs will end up as landfill, surely it will be cheaper and cleaner to recycle them, took a load of old lead acid batteries to the scrappers and got good money for them, wonder whats happening with current end of life EV's ? I be the numbers are so tiny nobody is quite sure what to do with them.
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
They can afford new cars.
The average car is 8 years old. Most people don't run new cars because they can't afford to.
DonkeyApple said:
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
They can afford new cars.
The average car is 8 years old. Most people don't run new cars because they can't afford to.
But 78% of cars are more than three years old (as of year end 2018) - I don't see how you can argue with "most people don't run new cars". You may wish to argue that it's not because they can't afford to and that in fact more people could afford to be running new cars than are, but I feel that would be out of character
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
otolith said:
More people have sufficient disposable income to get a new car on PCP or lease than used to be the case, and more of them do so than used to be the case, perhaps.
But 78% of cars are more than three years old (as of year end 2018) - I don't see how you can argue with "most people don't run new cars". You may wish to argue that it's not because they can't afford to and that in fact more people could afford to be running new cars than are, but I feel that would be out of character
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
?But 78% of cars are more than three years old (as of year end 2018) - I don't see how you can argue with "most people don't run new cars". You may wish to argue that it's not because they can't afford to and that in fact more people could afford to be running new cars than are, but I feel that would be out of character
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
78% of cars are more than 3 years old, therefore not "new".
This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
otolith said:
78% of cars are more than 3 years old, therefore not "new".
This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
I was questioning you’re slip into snide insults and what you actually meant by it and why?This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
With 30m cars on the road and something like 1m new a year then debating that most cars are old is somewhat pointless.
DonkeyApple said:
otolith said:
78% of cars are more than 3 years old, therefore not "new".
This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
I was questioning you’re slip into snide insults and what you actually meant by it and why?This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
With 30m cars on the road and something like 1m new a year then debating that most cars are old is somewhat pointless.
Gojira said:
So, how much does St Elon pay you for the advertising, anyway? 
You make the average Macolyte sound like a Doubting Thomas!
I paid 100k /to/ tesla. You make the average Macolyte sound like a Doubting Thomas!
This week my car got faster, more efficient, smarter and a brand new driving mode enabling one pedal driving using just regenerative braking (a world first...)
What did your car get?
RobDickinson said:
I paid 100k /to/ tesla.
This week my car got faster, more efficient, smarter and a brand new driving mode enabling one pedal driving using just regenerative braking (a world first...)
What did your car get?
It made me smile. Like yours never ever will This week my car got faster, more efficient, smarter and a brand new driving mode enabling one pedal driving using just regenerative braking (a world first...)
What did your car get?
It’ll be just epic when it’s just an electric taxi eh?
DonkeyApple said:
Companies like Tesla have a very globally parochial outlook, they make a product purely for the few global elite.
That's terribly misleading.When Tesla began trading in earnest, there was no other market apart from the few.
We all know about the consequent declines in cost of goods which have allowed for more affordable BEVs -- a segment where Tesla now also trade.
Tesla have been proactive about the non-vehicle parts of this equation -- such as battery technology, battery production, and vehicle recharging infrastructure -- that have helped affordability to come about.
Not too different in principle to the diffusion of mobile handsets and other innovations:
DonkeyApple said:
otolith said:
78% of cars are more than 3 years old, therefore not "new".
This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
I was questioning you’re slip into snide insults and what you actually meant by it and why?This is not compatible with the idea that most people are running new cars on credit. It's patently untrue. At most 22% of people are running new cars, but multi-car ownership and company ownership means that it's less than that.
Most people run old cars.
With 30m cars on the road and something like 1m new a year then debating that most cars are old is somewhat pointless.
There are two ways that "Most people don't run new cars because they can't afford to" could be "not technically true" - either most people do run new cars, which clearly they don't, because only 22% of cars are new, or the reason they don't is not affordability but something else, which seems incompatible with your opinions on what people can afford.
So it doesn't really make any sense for you to hold this position in the context of the statistics on the age of cars and your opinions on the affordability of debt.
J4CKO said:
Hmm, not really, am thinking more an older Model S, in a UK provincial town, lowered a bit, some nasty bigger wheels, tints, badly fitted body kit, big spoiler being driven like a tool with a huge cloud of sickly Mixed Berry Vape Smoke coming out of the window.
And what about the NOISE? No fart cannon, no party!janesmith1950 said:
I'm a life long car geek and petrol fanatic, yet the car my 6 year old son waxes on about is a Tesla. Not a Ferrari or Porsche. A Tesla. Times they are a changing.
I must admit: This sort of keen interest by children, quite young children, can be kind of inspiring (for adults!) in a way.Tesla is or was an underdog of sorts -- so there's that part of the story that children might like. Most of us like to cheer on the challenger. Elon Musk and Co. are doing something that, to a certain degree, the establishment said or implied couldn't be done.
And Musk, himself, can be a bit of a man-child -- being silly on Twitter or getting one of his affiliated companies to build and sell a flame-thrower.
But there's also the sort of protean quality of the BEV: the over-the-air updates that enhance and add features. I reckon that this is very compelling to children. And it ties together all sorts of things like location services, autonomous features, robotics, and so on.
Loads of young children learning to code, and many just teaching themselves. At a basic level, they're doing just the sort of things that software engineers at Tesla might do. And with so few degrees of separation between "I'm just a kid" and "I'm a software engineer", it's understandable that children can become very excitable.
As you say, one might have wanted to drive a Ferrari, to tune it, to get to work with a spanner and keep the car tip-top. And each of those things is still interesting. But there's arguably so much more on offer with the universe of the BEV.
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