Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – nominations

[Zarco]

Patrick Bateman said:

Zarco said:

182 didn't. Think the 172 had a space saver at least.

Trophy I sat in certainly felt like a smoother ride down a B-road than the 172 Cup I had at the time. The 182 Cup suspension is stiffer than that on the 172 Cup.

Surely the whole point in the Sachs dampers is they have a wider operating window and keep the car in good contact with the road more of the time.

Edited by Zarco on Sunday 1st December 10:19

They're very effective at that, no matter how rough the road gets the car feels completely nailed down, it just isn't very comfortable.

That's what I meant. Definitely not stiffer in comparison to the 182 Cup.

[Patrick Bateman]

Zarco said:

That's what I meant. Definitely not stiffer in comparison to the 182 Cup.

I'd still disagree having had cup dampers on my car.

[FA57REN]

What put me off the Clio 172 / 182 was their lowish NCAP rating. The later 197 / 200 had five star ratings which for me was important as a daily family car. Likewise Full Fat has an edge over raw Cup as it has side curtain airbags.

I think a good hot hatch should combine handling, fun, practicality and safety. Otherwise it's veering into sports car territory.

[tony dumble]

[PHuzzy]

nickfrog said:

PHuzzy said:

I'm sure now there'll be comparisons between some track tuned FWD car to a M140i but if you even think of doing that, at least do a like for like comparison with the cars and pick something that was designed for the track.

Which RWD hot hatch would you pick that was designed for the track, to compare it to a standard FWD hot hatch like the Civic or Megane Cup?

I don't think you're great at seeing the point being made.

No one makes a RWD track focussed hot hatch because that's not the point of a hot hatch, there are lots of track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned because that's what they're designed for.

[Trophy-GTA]

Zarco said:

Is the Trophy much lighter and stiffer? It's got much better suspension and thus handles better. I don't believe there was any weight reduction measures over the 182 Cup and the Sachs dampers are actually more compliant than the Cup Pack springs.

The 172 Cup was the only one with real weight reduction spec:

- Thinner/lighter glass
- Lighter wheels
- No spare wheel
- No AC (was an option on last batch)
- Less sound deadening/insulation

182 Trophy also has many weight saving goodies over the regular 182. Thinner glass ( picks up gps signal a lot better in the trophy due to lack of uv coating on the thinner poverty glass), light weight wheels, poverty spec rear bench, no spare wheel, no engine cover etc

[Zarco]

PHuzzy said:

nickfrog said:

PHuzzy said:

I'm sure now there'll be comparisons between some track tuned FWD car to a M140i but if you even think of doing that, at least do a like for like comparison with the cars and pick something that was designed for the track.

Which RWD hot hatch would you pick that was designed for the track, to compare it to a standard FWD hot hatch like the Civic or Megane Cup?

I don't think you're great at seeing the point being made.

No one makes a RWD track focussed hot hatch because that's not the point of a hot hatch, there are lots of track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned because that's what they're designed for.

I think you're trying to make a rather convoluted point to argue that the M140i deserves a place amongst the best hot hatch of this century.

Great cars IMHO. Love the engine and the fact its RWD. Quite fancy one. One thing that puts me off is the lack of a proper LSD and that the suspension isn't supposed to be the best when really pushing on. It's clearly been left slightly handicapped so there's a gap to the full ///M models.

[PHuzzy]

Zarco said:

PHuzzy said:

nickfrog said:

PHuzzy said:

I'm sure now there'll be comparisons between some track tuned FWD car to a M140i but if you even think of doing that, at least do a like for like comparison with the cars and pick something that was designed for the track.

Which RWD hot hatch would you pick that was designed for the track, to compare it to a standard FWD hot hatch like the Civic or Megane Cup?

I don't think you're great at seeing the point being made.

No one makes a RWD track focussed hot hatch because that's not the point of a hot hatch, there are lots of track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned because that's what they're designed for.

I think you're trying to make a rather convoluted point to argue that the M140i deserves a place amongst the best hot hatch of this century.

Great cars IMHO. Love the engine and the fact its RWD. Quite fancy one. One thing that puts me off is the lack of a proper LSD and that the suspension isn't supposed to be the best when really pushing on. It's clearly been left slightly handicapped so there's a gap to the full ///M models.

Ohh not at all, someone picked me up on the M140i suggestion.

My original point was that Clio's are terrible all rounders and there's no way they should be considered the best hot hatch when they're terrible at 80% of the things a hot hatch is supposed to do. Same with the 2 seater track special cars, they can't be considered as the best in my opinion.

If people who prefer FWD hatches think the road going Megane/Civic/Golf are the best hot hatch then I can't argue with that as they appear to do everything a hot hatch should and they do it well.
Personally I'd rather a RWD car or even AWD over a FWD car as they're usually more fun at and beyond the limit.

[egor110]

Surely beyond the limit and you've lost control ?

[PHuzzy]

If drifting/powersliding counts as losing control then I suppose you're right.
Doesn't mean you can't control drifting/sliding though and that's far more fun.

[Zarco]

PHuzzy said:

Zarco said:

PHuzzy said:

nickfrog said:

PHuzzy said:

I'm sure now there'll be comparisons between some track tuned FWD car to a M140i but if you even think of doing that, at least do a like for like comparison with the cars and pick something that was designed for the track.

Which RWD hot hatch would you pick that was designed for the track, to compare it to a standard FWD hot hatch like the Civic or Megane Cup?

I don't think you're great at seeing the point being made.

No one makes a RWD track focussed hot hatch because that's not the point of a hot hatch, there are lots of track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned because that's what they're designed for.

I think you're trying to make a rather convoluted point to argue that the M140i deserves a place amongst the best hot hatch of this century.

Great cars IMHO. Love the engine and the fact its RWD. Quite fancy one. One thing that puts me off is the lack of a proper LSD and that the suspension isn't supposed to be the best when really pushing on. It's clearly been left slightly handicapped so there's a gap to the full ///M models.

Ohh not at all, someone picked me up on the M140i suggestion.

My original point was that Clio's are terrible all rounders and there's no way they should be considered the best hot hatch when they're terrible at 80% of the things a hot hatch is supposed to do. Same with the 2 seater track special cars, they can't be considered as the best in my opinion.

If people who prefer FWD hatches think the road going Megane/Civic/Golf are the best hot hatch then I can't argue with that as they appear to do everything a hot hatch should and they do it well.
Personally I'd rather a RWD car or even AWD over a FWD car as they're usually more fun at and beyond the limit.

Irony being hot hatch have traditionally been souped up FWD shopping trollies. Personally I think there isn't much wrong with that recipe.

As for a Clio being terrible at 80% of the things a hot hatch is supposed to do. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that.

[DoubleD]

At least 50% of what a hot hatch needs to do is to be fun.

[Dombilano]

Audi's marketing and engineering departments shed a gentle tear at this article

[PHuzzy]

Zarco said:

PHuzzy said:

Zarco said:

PHuzzy said:

nickfrog said:

PHuzzy said:

I'm sure now there'll be comparisons between some track tuned FWD car to a M140i but if you even think of doing that, at least do a like for like comparison with the cars and pick something that was designed for the track.

Which RWD hot hatch would you pick that was designed for the track, to compare it to a standard FWD hot hatch like the Civic or Megane Cup?

I don't think you're great at seeing the point being made.

No one makes a RWD track focussed hot hatch because that's not the point of a hot hatch, there are lots of track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned because that's what they're designed for.

I think you're trying to make a rather convoluted point to argue that the M140i deserves a place amongst the best hot hatch of this century.

Great cars IMHO. Love the engine and the fact its RWD. Quite fancy one. One thing that puts me off is the lack of a proper LSD and that the suspension isn't supposed to be the best when really pushing on. It's clearly been left slightly handicapped so there's a gap to the full ///M models.

Ohh not at all, someone picked me up on the M140i suggestion.

My original point was that Clio's are terrible all rounders and there's no way they should be considered the best hot hatch when they're terrible at 80% of the things a hot hatch is supposed to do. Same with the 2 seater track special cars, they can't be considered as the best in my opinion.

If people who prefer FWD hatches think the road going Megane/Civic/Golf are the best hot hatch then I can't argue with that as they appear to do everything a hot hatch should and they do it well.
Personally I'd rather a RWD car or even AWD over a FWD car as they're usually more fun at and beyond the limit.

Irony being hot hatch have traditionally been souped up FWD shopping trollies. Personally I think there isn't much wrong with that recipe.

As for a Clio being terrible at 80% of the things a hot hatch is supposed to do. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that.

There isn't much wrong with the recipe, the newer cars are great.
The Leon I had was a remarkable car, I'm sure the Megane and Civic are even better but people have different opinions on fun and I just don't find FWD cars as fun to drive as RWD.

Yep, as we've found out through a few days of debating, lots of people have different feelings on what a hot hatch should do, so there will never be universal agreement.

[bcr5784]

Clio Trophy 182 for me.

I've never driven a Peugeot 205GTI 1.9, but I did own the similar (but much uglier) 309GTI which was a terrific car to drive and rated by as a bit better handling than its smaller sibling. Interesting (or not) Harry Metcalf would a probably agree.

The Suzuki Swift Sport (NA one) would complete my top 3.

Modern cars like the Civic Type R are hugely capable but physically HUGE too, and heavy. To put it into context a 205GTI is about the size an Up! and a fair bit lighter.

[egor110]

PHuzzy said:

If drifting/powersliding counts as losing control then I suppose you're right.
Doesn't mean you can't control drifting/sliding though and that's far more fun.

Be honest , day to day how often do you actually power slide your car ?

Even on a trackday you'd be removed if you keep drifting your car.

[PHuzzy]

egor110 said:

PHuzzy said:

If drifting/powersliding counts as losing control then I suppose you're right.
Doesn't mean you can't control drifting/sliding though and that's far more fun.

Be honest , day to day how often do you actually power slide your car ?

Even on a trackday you'd be removed if you keep drifting your car.

Depends on where I'm driving, traffic around and the conditions but on at least 50% of journeys I'll get a few occasions in.
With the recent cold and wet weather, probably closer to 75% of journeys.

[Leins]

DoubleD said:

At least 50% of what a hot hatch needs to do is to be fun.

This. And the rest of the time mine is sitting in the garage!

[Zarco]

PHuzzy said:

egor110 said:

PHuzzy said:

If drifting/powersliding counts as losing control then I suppose you're right.
Doesn't mean you can't control drifting/sliding though and that's far more fun.

Be honest , day to day how often do you actually power slide your car ?

Even on a trackday you'd be removed if you keep drifting your car.

Depends on where I'm driving, traffic around and the conditions but on at least 50% of journeys I'll get a few occasions in.
With the recent cold and wet weather, probably closer to 75% of journeys.

Rest of the time it's spinning the inside wheel going nowhere


Sorry.

[PHuzzy]

Zarco said:

Rest of the time it's spinning the inside wheel going nowhere


Sorry.

True. In some circumstances an LSD would be much nicer.

Although being able to lap roundabouts sideways with an open diff isn't too difficult.