Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – nominations

Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – nominations

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otolith

39,206 posts

152 months

Monday 2nd December
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mstrbkr said:
How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).
I think there was a cheap JDM GT86 aimed at modifiers.

mstrbkr

7,137 posts

146 months

Monday 2nd December
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GTiWILL said:
EP3 Honda Civic Type R
The steering though. It's inexcusable to have such little steering feel (I have owned one).

Mind you it's got a better rack than the mk 7 Fiesta ST (I have also owned one).

Zarco

12,675 posts

157 months

Monday 2nd December
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mstrbkr said:
Another vote for 172 Cup. I replaced mine with an S2000 but I enjoyed the Clio more.

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).

Renault took parts away (air con, ABS, leather, traction control, xenon lights) and gave those savings straight to the customer. But they also added new parts like the lighter speedline wheels, the cup spoiler, thinner glass, and the unique paint colour.

I think Renault absolutely smashed it with that car.
Great summary.

Getting me all misty eye'd about my old Cup now. So many adventures in that car.

rev-erend

20,119 posts

232 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Another vote for Clio 182 CUP.

So placeable, cheap to run and an absolute thug with manners. Just great.

mstrbkr

7,137 posts

146 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
otolith said:
I think there was a cheap JDM GT86 aimed at modifiers.
That is one that I could remember, but it was just low spec wasn't it, rather than a special hot version?

Leins

6,928 posts

96 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
mstrbkr said:
Another vote for 172 Cup. I replaced mine with an S2000 but I enjoyed the Clio more.

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).

Renault took parts away (air con, ABS, leather, traction control, xenon lights) and gave those savings straight to the customer. But they also added new parts like the lighter speedline wheels, the cup spoiler, thinner glass, and the unique paint colour.

I think Renault absolutely smashed it with that car.
Porsche of all people have done it a number of times, but the last one I can remember from them was the 968 CS, which from memory was cheaper than the standard car to the tune of about £7k

Please note for anyone who selectively reads just certain portions of posts that I’m not nominating the 968 CS as a modern hot hatch laugh

Edited by Leins on Monday 2nd December 19:58

otolith

39,206 posts

152 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
mstrbkr said:
otolith said:
I think there was a cheap JDM GT86 aimed at modifiers.
That is one that I could remember, but it was just low spec wasn't it, rather than a special hot version?
Yep. Stripped out rather than hot, in anticipation of being tuned.

Zarco

12,675 posts

157 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Leins said:
mstrbkr said:
Another vote for 172 Cup. I replaced mine with an S2000 but I enjoyed the Clio more.

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).

Renault took parts away (air con, ABS, leather, traction control, xenon lights) and gave those savings straight to the customer. But they also added new parts like the lighter speedline wheels, the cup spoiler, thinner glass, and the unique paint colour.

I think Renault absolutely smashed it with that car.
Porsche of all people have done it a number of times, but the last one I can remember from them was the 968 CS, which from memory was cheaper than the standard car to the tune of about £7k

Please note for anyone who selectively reads just certain portions of posts that I’m not nominating the 968 CS as a modern hot hatch laugh

Edited by Leins on Monday 2nd December 19:58
Porsche have since realised they can actually charge more for less hehe

106 and 306 Rallye were in a similar vein. Shame Peugeot completely lost their way until recently.


Niffty951

1,829 posts

176 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Zarco said:
Leins said:
mstrbkr said:
Another vote for 172 Cup. I replaced mine with an S2000 but I enjoyed the Clio more.

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).

Renault took parts away (air con, ABS, leather, traction control, xenon lights) and gave those savings straight to the customer. But they also added new parts like the lighter speedline wheels, the cup spoiler, thinner glass, and the unique paint colour.

I think Renault absolutely smashed it with that car.
Porsche of all people have done it a number of times, but the last one I can remember from them was the 968 CS, which from memory was cheaper than the standard car to the tune of about £7k

Please note for anyone who selectively reads just certain portions of posts that I’m not nominating the 968 CS as a modern hot hatch laugh

Edited by Leins on Monday 2nd December 19:58
Porsche have since realised they can actually charge more for less hehe

106 and 306 Rallye were in a similar vein. Shame Peugeot completely lost their way until recently.
I always thought it was a no cost option on the 968 for CS or regular spec.

white_goodman

3,358 posts

139 months

Monday 2nd December
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nickfrog said:
Just one of those "track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned" compared to say a current CTR or a Trophy Meg non R either Mk3 or 4. Metric could be balance / neutrality, endurance (no 1 lap wonders) or whatever metric you see fit to match what you call "better".
As Phuzzy has gone a bit quiet on this, I'd have to proffer the 1M/M2 for comparison against the more track-focussed FWD hot hatches. Sure, it's not technically a hot hatch but as you're aware the 130i/M135i/M140i was pretty much the only RWD hot hatch this century. It has the same base as the 1-Series and is essentially a more track-focussed M135i/M140i with the wick turned up to 11. Although depending on what videos you may have watched, it's not a lot faster than the M135i/M140i in a straight line. Pound for pound, as a nearly new purchase (M2) vs. new, it's going to be similar money too.

One also might throw in the GT86/BRZ for comparison as a track-focussed RWD car, although it's borderline practical and would no doubt suffer next to the punchier turbocharged hot hatches on anything other than a very twisty circuit. A base 718 Cayman may also offer a valid pound-to-pound comparison between FWD and RWD. Similar power figure to the quickest hot hatches and fairly practical but you do lose the rear seats (but then so do you on the GP1/R26R/GTI Clubsport S etc).

O/T, it sounds like I messed up with my appraisal of the Clio 182 but perhaps the one that I should have tried was the 172 Cup when I was looking for the spiritual successor to my 205 GTi.

PHuzzy

2,351 posts

120 months

Monday 2nd December
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white_goodman said:
nickfrog said:
Just one of those "track focussed RWD cars though that are better than the ones you mentioned" compared to say a current CTR or a Trophy Meg non R either Mk3 or 4. Metric could be balance / neutrality, endurance (no 1 lap wonders) or whatever metric you see fit to match what you call "better".
As Phuzzy has gone a bit quiet on this, I'd have to proffer the 1M/M2 for comparison against the more track-focussed FWD hot hatches. Sure, it's not technically a hot hatch but as you're aware the 130i/M135i/M140i was pretty much the only RWD hot hatch this century. It has the same base as the 1-Series and is essentially a more track-focussed M135i/M140i with the wick turned up to 11. Although depending on what videos you may have watched, it's not a lot faster than the M135i/M140i in a straight line. Pound for pound, as a nearly new purchase (M2) vs. new, it's going to be similar money too.

One also might throw in the GT86/BRZ for comparison as a track-focussed RWD car, although it's borderline practical and would no doubt suffer next to the punchier turbocharged hot hatches on anything other than a very twisty circuit. A base 718 Cayman may also offer a valid pound-to-pound comparison between FWD and RWD. Similar power figure to the quickest hot hatches and fairly practical but you do lose the rear seats (but then so do you on the GP1/R26R/GTI Clubsport S etc).

O/T, it sounds like I messed up with my appraisal of the Clio 182 but perhaps the one that I should have tried was the 172 Cup when I was looking for the spiritual successor to my 205 GTi.
Well timed, unfortunately work gets in the way sometimes.

I was asking the question originally as most track biased cars will be terrible on road which is why I was clarifying what it was being compared to.

I wouldn't have said any of those are really track focussed. You'd be looking at Elises, Exiges, Caterham(s) 270-420, KTM X-Bow, 911 GT3/RS, Alpine A110 etc. Maybe even the Cayman & M4 CS but they're still relatively road biased.

white_goodman

3,358 posts

139 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
PHuzzy said:
Well timed, unfortunately work gets in the way sometimes.

I was asking the question originally as most track biased cars will be terrible on road which is why I was clarifying what it was being compared to.

I wouldn't have said any of those are really track focussed. You'd be looking at Elises, Exiges, Caterham(s) 270-420, KTM X-Bow, 911 GT3/RS, Alpine A110 etc. Maybe even the Cayman & M4 CS but they're still relatively road biased.
Yeah, I see what you mean now. M2/Cayman probably as track-focussed as a Type-R/Megane Trophy etc though and I was trying to think of something that was still fairly daily useable/practical. The others that you mentioned are always going to be more focussed than something based on a FWD shopping hatch and you could possibly daily drive them but they come with big compromises.

Exige/911 GT3/Alpine would be great track cars but then you're spending significantly more. You get what you pay for...


PHuzzy

2,351 posts

120 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
white_goodman said:
PHuzzy said:
Well timed, unfortunately work gets in the way sometimes.

I was asking the question originally as most track biased cars will be terrible on road which is why I was clarifying what it was being compared to.

I wouldn't have said any of those are really track focussed. You'd be looking at Elises, Exiges, Caterham(s) 270-420, KTM X-Bow, 911 GT3/RS, Alpine A110 etc. Maybe even the Cayman & M4 CS but they're still relatively road biased.
Yeah, I see what you mean now. M2/Cayman probably as track-focussed as a Type-R/Megane Trophy etc though and I was trying to think of something that was still fairly daily useable/practical. The others that you mentioned are always going to be more focussed than something based on a FWD shopping hatch and you could possibly daily drive them but they come with big compromises.

Exige/911 GT3/Alpine would be great track cars but then you're spending significantly more. You get what you pay for...
Oh for sure, especially regarding the price. It was one of the other reasons I asked for criteria to compare the cars with.

The only real standout track performer normal hot hatch I can see that is a 'reasonable price' is the FK8 Civic (taking my scepticism around the roll cage into account).

I've already stated that as a hot hatch, the non nutter bd spec Meganes are a great choice for the nomination of best, I just prefer RWD cars.
My argument was with the Clio's, I can't see them being anywhere near as useful day to day as the Meganes/Civics/m140i and Focus hatches with better safety, practicality, tech, infotainment etc.


TameRacingDriver

12,713 posts

220 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Must admit even though I've been critical of the Clio in the past, when I think about it, there wasn't anything much better in its class overall.

There seems to be some discussion about whether its the 172 Cup or 182 Trophy that is the best, but for me, it depends what you want, the 172 Cup has always seemed to be the rawer, drivers car of the two. The 182 Trophy is probably easier to live with though due to the extra creature comforts. It's a hard one, the latter would win for me as a daily driver, the Cup would be the best as a weekend car.

bcr5784

3,948 posts

93 months

Monday 2nd December
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PHuzzy said:
I've already stated that as a hot hatch, the non nutter bd spec Meganes are a great choice for the nomination of best, I just prefer RWD cars.
My argument was with the Clio's, I can't see them being anywhere near as useful day to day as the Meganes/Civics/m140i and Focus hatches with better safety, practicality, tech, infotainment etc.
Can't see this big difference between Clios and Meganes etc. Sure a Megane or Civic is bigger which may be significant in usefullness if you are big and have a big family, but for the rest of us the sheer size of current Meganes and Civics seriously diminishes the fun factor on your typical B road. Cars have expanded a lot in size in the last 20 years - roads haven't.

PHuzzy

2,351 posts

120 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
PHuzzy said:
I've already stated that as a hot hatch, the non nutter bd spec Meganes are a great choice for the nomination of best, I just prefer RWD cars.
My argument was with the Clio's, I can't see them being anywhere near as useful day to day as the Meganes/Civics/m140i and Focus hatches with better safety, practicality, tech, infotainment etc.
Can't see this big difference between Clios and Meganes etc. Sure a Megane or Civic is bigger which may be significant in usefullness if you are big and have a big family, but for the rest of us the sheer size of current Meganes and Civics seriously diminishes the fun factor on your typical B road. Cars have expanded a lot in size in the last 20 years - roads haven't.
It very much depends on what people view the point of a hot hatch is, I've explained already that I see them as a compromise of a car that can do the day to day stuff of commuting, sitting in traffic, taking the kids places, shopping etc and then when the right road comes up and you can have a blast in it, it's great. The problem with that is, by being track focussed, it can only really do the last bit well and it's far worse at everything else.

For me the Clio (and most of the older hatches now) only really do the last bit well in comparison to the newer breed of hatches, the game has moved on a touch. The newer ones may have lost a bit of the edge in fun or rawness but they make up for it in other ways that really come into play more often when using the car as a daily drive and having to do all of the things I mentioned further up.

Some people primarily use the hot hatch as their fun car, which I get, especially with the much mentioned Clio and I'm sure they're great for that but then I feel that crosses into the sports car category of usage for me and opens up a whole world of debate between the differences of purpose built sports cars and raw hot hatches.

It's all personal opinion though of course and people are free to disagree (I'm sure PH know this'll happen and do it on purpose to drive more traffic into threads) biggrin I've definitely broken the discussion rule though. rofl


Leins

6,928 posts

96 months

Tuesday
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Just on the point of BMW being the only manufacturer of RWD hot hatches, don’t forget the Mercedes C230K Sport Coupe, very much a hatchback despite the name and a rival to the BMW 325ti. Also, if you include LHD models you have the AMG C30 CDi and (very rare) C32 versions, the latter having 350hp back in 2002

Gio G

2,227 posts

157 months

Tuesday
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Niffty951 said:
Great car. I loved Audi for having the balls to produce it. VW were talking about a Polo R version of the same and when they were thinking of taking deposits I was screaming take my money to my local dealer. I couldn't get behind the looks of the S1, I preferred the Polo as a car and the way VW tune their cars handling but it never came to be.

I do still have a lot of respect for a micro hatch with a 2.0t and 4wd. Off topic but how is it on fuel?
The investment Audi made to bring it into production was pretty significant. You do find so many of them modified these days and want to keep mine as standard as possible. Fuel wise, when driving in dynamic mode, I would say it is mid to high 20's MPG (b-roads) in eco setting you will see mid 30's. Having fitted some new Michelin tyres on it recently, in this rain soaked weather, the grip is simply outstanding, just puts a smile of my face when I drive it.

G

mstrbkr

7,137 posts

146 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Zarco said:
mstrbkr said:
Another vote for 172 Cup. I replaced mine with an S2000 but I enjoyed the Clio more.

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).

Renault took parts away (air con, ABS, leather, traction control, xenon lights) and gave those savings straight to the customer. But they also added new parts like the lighter speedline wheels, the cup spoiler, thinner glass, and the unique paint colour.

I think Renault absolutely smashed it with that car.
Great summary.

Getting me all misty eye'd about my old Cup now. So many adventures in that car.
Me too! Owned mine during my early twenties and had a blast smile

lemmingjames

5,887 posts

152 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
mstrbkr said:
Another vote for 172 Cup. I replaced mine with an S2000 but I enjoyed the Clio more.

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

How many other examples are there of special "track" versions being cheaper than the base car? (Not making a statement. I'm actually wondering).

Renault took parts away (air con, ABS, leather, traction control, xenon lights) and gave those savings straight to the customer. But they also added new parts like the lighter speedline wheels, the cup spoiler, thinner glass, and the unique paint colour.

I think Renault absolutely smashed it with that car.
Honda did one in Japan with DC5 ITR, though it wasn't road legal so purely for track and racing
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