A sportscar shouldn’t have...
Discussion
bcr5784 said:
DoubleD said:
(apart from a couple of pay drivers).
Have to agree only Stroll and (very very sadly Kubica now) aren't really outstanding drivers. mat205125 said:
There's arguably a richer driver talent at the front of the ForumulaE grid, than there is driving in the middle of the F1 pack
Some like Stoffel Van Doorne have been in F1 ( and rejected) others have been in F1 driver development squads and not made it. So I'm not convinced - but we are well off topic, so I'd better stop.- FWD
- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
- Traction control that can't be disabled,
- Less than 300hp/ton (ok this is arguable),
- Brakes that limit you to 3 laps at track days,
- An automatic gearbox
- Or weight more that 1500kg
- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
- Traction control that can't be disabled,
- Less than 300hp/ton (ok this is arguable),
- Brakes that limit you to 3 laps at track days,
- An automatic gearbox
- Or weight more that 1500kg
nickfrog said:
I have no idea how one can have fun on the road, particularly in SE England where it is s basically pot holes, traffic congestion and speed traps. Or at least compared to how much fun can be had on track.
This simply isn't true. The joy and challenge of a track is equal, fantastic but not better. The sense of purpose, driving for pleasure with a hotel or destination in mind, the flow you need to find and awareness as the surface, scenery and weather change on a road trip. Planning and observation are arguably more demanding on the road than on track and whilst walking the tightrope of grip limits/pushing braking points is very enjoyable, it's very possible to enjoy a good chassis a.d feel connected with a car at 7-8:10 ths.Buy a pre 2012 Porsche, before they changed their targets away from driver focus. Some may argue pre 1998 due to mass manufacturing, a cost focussed re-structure and water cooling to meet emissions, but for driving pleasure I disagree. 996/997 cars beg to be driven and you don't want to stop at your destination.
I think most recent cars are aimed at a different market, features first and don't trust the drivers is a 'recent' change.
Edited by Niffty951 on Friday 13th December 08:41
Niffty951 said:
nickfrog said:
I have no idea how one can have fun on the road, particularly in SE England where it is s basically pot holes, traffic congestion and speed traps. Or at least compared to how much fun can be had on track.
This simply isn't true. The joy and challenge of a track is equal, fantastic but not better. The sense of purpose, driving for pleasure with a hotel or destination in mind, the flow you need to find and awareness as the surface, scenery and weather change on a road trip. Planning and observation are arguably more demanding on the road than on track and whilst walking the tightrope of grip limits/pushing braking points is very enjoyable, it's very possible to enjoy a good chassis a.d feel connected with a car at 7-8:10 ths.As for track driving, Ishmael in Moby Dick summed up my view.
Ishmael said:
whereto does all that circumnavigation conduct? Only through numberless perils to the very point whence we started,
Niffty951 said:
- FWD
- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
- Traction control that can't be disabled,
- Less than 300hp/ton (ok this is arguable),
- Brakes that limit you to 3 laps at track days,
- An automatic gearbox
- Or weight more that 1500kg
I would strongly disagree about the 300 hp/ton, as that alone would disqualify almost every sportscar ever built.- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
- Traction control that can't be disabled,
- Less than 300hp/ton (ok this is arguable),
- Brakes that limit you to 3 laps at track days,
- An automatic gearbox
- Or weight more that 1500kg
And the easy way to get that power is with a turbo, which is close to being on my "mustn't have" list.
AW111 said:
Niffty951 said:
- FWD
- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
- Traction control that can't be disabled,
- Less than 300hp/ton (ok this is arguable),
- Brakes that limit you to 3 laps at track days,
- An automatic gearbox
- Or weight more that 1500kg
I would strongly disagree about the 300 hp/ton, as that alone would disqualify almost every sportscar ever built.- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
- Traction control that can't be disabled,
- Less than 300hp/ton (ok this is arguable),
- Brakes that limit you to 3 laps at track days,
- An automatic gearbox
- Or weight more that 1500kg
And the easy way to get that power is with a turbo, which is close to being on my "mustn't have" list.
In the rare few vehicles I've owned that exceed this marker (or some less convenient number near it) I've noticed that whilst I may happily accept and enjoy more. I never find myself wanting for more no matter how long long I drive them*.
- *Exception to this rule being when not in isolation and trying to follow a car out of a bend who has more power than you, there is nothing more frustrating than that feeling of helplessness as you know nothing you can do will stop it casually strolling away from you.. but this is incurable. There will always be something faster. At some point wallet, sanity and the enjoyment of other elements of driving prevail to give you contentment in your own machine.
Edited by Niffty951 on Friday 13th December 11:08
Niffty951 said:
- FWD
- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
Ironically, open diffs were introduced to reduce a vehicle's tendency to understeer, and adding an LSD will promote understeer (as well as the ability to hold a powerslide for longer) unless the suspension is adjusted to cope.- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
Also, if you're really understeering - I mean more than just on the edge of understeer, then adding lock won't help.
kiseca said:
Niffty951 said:
- FWD
- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
Ironically, open diffs were introduced to reduce a vehicle's tendency to understeer, and adding an LSD will promote understeer (as well as the ability to hold a powerslide for longer) unless the suspension is adjusted to cope.- An open Diff,
- 'safety' understeer (you should never need to add lock as you corner faster, its disgusting)
Also, if you're really understeering - I mean more than just on the edge of understeer, then adding lock won't help.
However, I'd argue in practice a locking diff rarely contributes to understeer. It isn't going to affect understeer on turn in when you'll be off the power or on the brakes. On exit if you're going quickly enough to trouble the front tyres into understeer then usually applying throttle to the rear wheels will cause them to slip first. With a locking diff this feels to me at least to cause a smoother and more manageable transition in the attitude of the car. Practically speaking on greacy roads or uphill turning onto fast moving main roads it tends to aid progress/safety far more often than it hinders it. Lastly I hate open diffs for wasting all my power away in a one tyre bonfire as you straighten the wheel out of bends and try to get back onto the throttle.
On a front wheel drive with a locking diff I can't get my head around it at all other than maybe it just gives you more grip but basically magic happens and I can go faster with a locking diff than without one.
As for understeer, I'm speaking very much from a point of feel and perception. I hate it below the grip limit for making me add lock to compensate for the onset of slip. I hate it more after the loss of grip for giving absolutely no options to the driver. Carry too much speed into a bend in a car that understeers (it's happened to us all at some point) and you cannot brake, you cannot accelerate, your only option is to lift off the throttle and hope that grip will return in an arc that doesn't pass through the ditch. Same situation in a car keen to oversteer and it's brave as much braking as you dare before the angle gets beyond your comfort zone and then slide through the bend on a zero or very tentative throttle and scrub off speed. You're not always going to find the perfect arc and you may very well spin or go off the inside of the bend but it buys you time and it buys you options. Practice tells me you stand a much better chance of keeping out of the ditch.
The two things that I can't quite buy into in a sports car are an automatic transmission and AWD. I'll have to let DCTs pass because then that would mean stuff like the Alpine, Alfa 4C and GT3 aren't sports cars and they clearly are. Other things that I can let slide are:
Fixed roof - how can one say that an MGB is a sports car and an MGB GT isn't? Are the Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ and Nissan Z cars also not sports cars.
FWD - Stuff like the Fiat barchetta and Lotus Elan despite being FWD are more sports car than the RWD SLK in my opinion with its auto transmission and C-Class underpinnings. I might also "stretch" the term "sports car" to stuff like the Corrado VR6, Fiat Coupe and Alfa GTV. They all have a sense of purpose and their manufacturers all offered similarly powered, more practical cars at the time which weren't sports cars.
Must have 2 seats - see above suggestions.
Only 2 doors - Mostly agree but how about something like the Project 8? So far removed from the "base" car and has been likened to a 911 GT3 (to confound me, it also has a torque convertor auto and AWD)!
Coming back to AWD, I think that the non-GT2/GT3 water-cooled 911s have become more GT than sports cars but the air-cooled 911s were still very much sports cars. But then if a 964 Carrera 2 is a sports car then a 964 Carrera 4 has to be too?
Where does the Clio V6 sit in? Technically it's a hot hatch but then I'm not really buying that and if you drive it like a hot hatch, you'll probably die! Mid-engine V6, RWD, totally bespoke bodywork. The only thing that it shares with a Clio is a vague resemblance. More sports car than hot hatch IMHO.
Fixed roof - how can one say that an MGB is a sports car and an MGB GT isn't? Are the Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ and Nissan Z cars also not sports cars.
FWD - Stuff like the Fiat barchetta and Lotus Elan despite being FWD are more sports car than the RWD SLK in my opinion with its auto transmission and C-Class underpinnings. I might also "stretch" the term "sports car" to stuff like the Corrado VR6, Fiat Coupe and Alfa GTV. They all have a sense of purpose and their manufacturers all offered similarly powered, more practical cars at the time which weren't sports cars.
Must have 2 seats - see above suggestions.
Only 2 doors - Mostly agree but how about something like the Project 8? So far removed from the "base" car and has been likened to a 911 GT3 (to confound me, it also has a torque convertor auto and AWD)!
Coming back to AWD, I think that the non-GT2/GT3 water-cooled 911s have become more GT than sports cars but the air-cooled 911s were still very much sports cars. But then if a 964 Carrera 2 is a sports car then a 964 Carrera 4 has to be too?
Where does the Clio V6 sit in? Technically it's a hot hatch but then I'm not really buying that and if you drive it like a hot hatch, you'll probably die! Mid-engine V6, RWD, totally bespoke bodywork. The only thing that it shares with a Clio is a vague resemblance. More sports car than hot hatch IMHO.
white_goodman said:
Other things that I can let slide are:
Fixed roof - how can one say that an MGB is a sports car and an MGB GT isn't? Are the Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ and Nissan Z cars also not sports cars.
For me the Nissan Z cars and GT86/BRZ aren't sports cars. The Z cars are sporty GTs and the GT86/BRZ are sporty Coupes. Fixed roof - how can one say that an MGB is a sports car and an MGB GT isn't? Are the Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ and Nissan Z cars also not sports cars.
The Alpine A110 I really struggle with though, because I see it as a sports car(relatively light/2 seats) but then it is hobbled(for me) with it only having two pedals.
A proper sports car for me is a Caterham or a Lotus Elise or similar.
MikeM6 said:
I'm not clear on why having a roof prevents something from being a sports car. That just doesn't make any sense. Why does a car have to be structurally compromised to be a sports car?
Typically the structural compromise comes when you chop the roof off something designed with a roof from the outset. You can design an un-compromised structure without a roof. 
blueg33 said:
Typically the structural compromise comes when you chop the roof off something designed with a roof from the outset. You can design an un-compromised structure without a roof.
I am no expert, but would it not be more rigid if it did have a roof? Or lighter if they did not need add rigidity elsewhere. It just seems to me the having a big hole in the stucture is a compromise, unless of course they don't have doors as per an F1 car.None of that explains why a roof stops something being a sports car.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff