A sportscar shouldn’t have...
Discussion
blueg33 said:
Typically the structural compromise comes when you chop the roof off something designed with a roof from the outset. You can design an un-compromised structure without a roof.
Yes and no. To make an open car as stiff as a coupe it will either be much heavier or access will be severely compromised by big sills as in the Elise or Caterham (or F1 car!)The Boxster/Cayman comparison is a case in point. They weigh about the same because they use the same platform - but the Cayman is well over twice as stiff as the Boxster (which itself is very stiff for an open car). In fact the 981/718 Cayman is far stiffer than it needs to be - it's actually one of the stiffest cars made - 40000+ nm/degree - and is actually stiffer than a Rolls Royce Phantom! But you are right in the sense that it doesn't make engineering sense to design the structure of an open car the same as a coupe - but it often makes commercial sense.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 14th December 11:03
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 14th December 11:06
Cotty said:
cerb4.5lee said:
A proper sports car for me is a Caterham or a Lotus Elise or similar.
What would you class an Exige or an EvoraWhat about an Elise with a hard top, does it stop being a sports car because of the roof?
This was mine for three years
I'd still class an Exige as a sports car and I don't have an issue with an Elise with a hard top either.
The Evora is more difficult for me because of its weight, and I tend to class a proper sports car for its lightness.
cerb4.5lee said:
Very nice.
I'd still class an Exige as a sports car and I don't have an issue with an Elise with a hard top either.
The Evora is more difficult for me because of its weight, and I tend to class a proper sports car for its lightness.
I personally am a big fan of light cars - but if you exclude the Evora you will exclude the Cayman/Boxster Z4/Supra and lots of other stuff past and present.I'd still class an Exige as a sports car and I don't have an issue with an Elise with a hard top either.
The Evora is more difficult for me because of its weight, and I tend to class a proper sports car for its lightness.
bcr5784 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Very nice.
I'd still class an Exige as a sports car and I don't have an issue with an Elise with a hard top either.
The Evora is more difficult for me because of its weight, and I tend to class a proper sports car for its lightness.
I personally am a big fan of light cars - but if you exclude the Evora you will exclude the Cayman/Boxster Z4/Supra and lots of other stuff past and present.I'd still class an Exige as a sports car and I don't have an issue with an Elise with a hard top either.
The Evora is more difficult for me because of its weight, and I tend to class a proper sports car for its lightness.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Surely any car which is used in any form of motor sport, could be regarded as being a sports car, since it is a car being used for sport.
I use my Subaru to tow my boat to the water, so it's obviously a sports car, even though it's a humble Outback rather than the mighty Liberty spec B.cerb4.5lee said:
None of those you mention are sports cars for me.
To my mind you are talking about "track cars" more than "sports cars", which are primarily road-going vehicles. IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
I would argue that the convertible bit is a red herring too. As discussed usually weight, dynamics or useability are compromised - and often all three. So (depending on your definition of "sporting") a convertible will arguably be LESS sporting than a coupe sibling. So the old-style MX5 with a fixed hardtop is stiffer than its convertible sibling and handles a bit better as a result. A 911 Cab is very floppy compared with the Coupe and so on.
Another thought occurs to me rockin includes the MGB as a sportscar but dismisses the Morgan as an anachronism. Sure a Morgan is more of an anachronism - but was doubtless considered a Sportscar in the 1930s. The MGB is by modern standards an anachronism too (and frankly even in the 70s was, by Lotus standards, pretty primitive). I'd take a bit of convincing that the MGB is less anachronistic vis-a-vis the Boxster than the Morgan is vs the MGB (and I have driven them all).
And, of course , the Plus 6 Morgan is very much up to date suspension-wise so surely must be categorised as a sports car.
Another thought occurs to me rockin includes the MGB as a sportscar but dismisses the Morgan as an anachronism. Sure a Morgan is more of an anachronism - but was doubtless considered a Sportscar in the 1930s. The MGB is by modern standards an anachronism too (and frankly even in the 70s was, by Lotus standards, pretty primitive). I'd take a bit of convincing that the MGB is less anachronistic vis-a-vis the Boxster than the Morgan is vs the MGB (and I have driven them all).
And, of course , the Plus 6 Morgan is very much up to date suspension-wise so surely must be categorised as a sports car.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 14th December 18:31
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 14th December 18:34
Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 15th December 08:53
cerb4.5lee said:
For me the Nissan Z cars and GT86/BRZ aren't sports cars. The Z cars are sporty GTs and the GT86/BRZ are sporty Coupes.
The Alpine A110 I really struggle with though, because I see it as a sports car(relatively light/2 seats) but then it is hobbled(for me) with it only having two pedals.
A proper sports car for me is a Caterham or a Lotus Elise or similar.
Hmmm. I would put the GT86 on the same level as the MX5 i.e. basically a fixed head MX5 with a couple of token rear seats. It does have a dedicated "sports car" chassis and would be able to handle itself pretty well on track i.e. get a few hot laps in without cooking the brakes/bonfiring the tyres. GT86/BRZ is a sports car, something like a Vauxhall Tigra/Calibra is a sports coupe. Likewise, the Nissan Z cars. I would think of stuff like the Conti GT, DB11/DBS and front-engined V12 Ferraris as the quintessential GT cars. An excess of power, comfort and refinement. The Z cars are a bit lacking in this in my experience (however I've only passengered in a 350Z). Stuff like the S5/RS5 and C63 AMG Coupe are more junior GT cars for me but wouldn't be as fun as a Z on track but are as nice to ride in as they are to drive. BMW M4 is in a bit of a grey area.The Alpine A110 I really struggle with though, because I see it as a sports car(relatively light/2 seats) but then it is hobbled(for me) with it only having two pedals.
A proper sports car for me is a Caterham or a Lotus Elise or similar.
I think the thing is that there is a bit of a spectrum of sports cars. You've got your really focussed Caterhams, Elises and track cars, which are awesome on track but offer little daily useability, your useable everyday sports cars like the MX5/GT86/BRZ/350Z/370Z which have a few creature comforts and a bit more practicality to make them a bit easier to live with on a daily basis and then a fairly big step up in price to stuff like the Cayman/Boxster, Alfa 4C, Alpine etc and other vehicles like the new Supra, Mustang, Z4 and Mercedes SLC/SLK are technically still sports cars but more at the GT-end of the spectrum.
rockin said:
To my mind you are talking about "track cars" more than "sports cars", which are primarily road-going vehicles.
IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
i haven't always appreciated your posts.... but i'd agree with the above.IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
The Morgan is a museum piece, but also a fun sports car, even today. yes it's crude and the suspension the opposite of sophisticated, but a sports car doesn't need to be as competent as a GT, Sports GT, Supercar etc. on a smooth piece of curcy tarmac it entertains. the real complaint is that the tarmac must be smooth. i do own one but would happily swap it out if i were to be allowed.
white_goodman said:
Hmmm. I would put the GT86 on the same level as the MX5 i.e. basically a fixed head MX5 with a couple of token rear seats. It does have a dedicated "sports car" chassis and would be able to handle itself pretty well on track i.e. get a few hot laps in without cooking the brakes/bonfiring the tyres. GT86/BRZ is a sports car, something like a Vauxhall Tigra/Calibra is a sports coupe. Likewise, the Nissan Z cars. I would think of stuff like the Conti GT, DB11/DBS and front-engined V12 Ferraris as the quintessential GT cars. An excess of power, comfort and refinement. The Z cars are a bit lacking in this in my experience (however I've only passengered in a 350Z). Stuff like the S5/RS5 and C63 AMG Coupe are more junior GT cars for me but wouldn't be as fun as a Z on track but are as nice to ride in as they are to drive. BMW M4 is in a bit of a grey area.
I think the thing is that there is a bit of a spectrum of sports cars. You've got your really focussed Caterhams, Elises and track cars, which are awesome on track but offer little daily useability, your useable everyday sports cars like the MX5/GT86/BRZ/350Z/370Z which have a few creature comforts and a bit more practicality to make them a bit easier to live with on a daily basis and then a fairly big step up in price to stuff like the Cayman/Boxster, Alfa 4C, Alpine etc and other vehicles like the new Supra, Mustang, Z4 and Mercedes SLC/SLK are technically still sports cars but more at the GT-end of the spectrum.
agree on the 86 as it's *relatively* light. certainly its focused on sports car fun rather than comfort or fast competence.I think the thing is that there is a bit of a spectrum of sports cars. You've got your really focussed Caterhams, Elises and track cars, which are awesome on track but offer little daily useability, your useable everyday sports cars like the MX5/GT86/BRZ/350Z/370Z which have a few creature comforts and a bit more practicality to make them a bit easier to live with on a daily basis and then a fairly big step up in price to stuff like the Cayman/Boxster, Alfa 4C, Alpine etc and other vehicles like the new Supra, Mustang, Z4 and Mercedes SLC/SLK are technically still sports cars but more at the GT-end of the spectrum.
Supra, Mustang, Z4 and Mercedes SLC/SLK are not sports cars imo, and nor do they aim to be. they explicitly target a different segment to the 85/MX5.
As for C63, M4. definitely not. that's a different segment entirely.
white_goodman said:
cerb4.5lee said:
For me the Nissan Z cars and GT86/BRZ aren't sports cars. The Z cars are sporty GTs and the GT86/BRZ are sporty Coupes.
The Alpine A110 I really struggle with though, because I see it as a sports car(relatively light/2 seats) but then it is hobbled(for me) with it only having two pedals.
A proper sports car for me is a Caterham or a Lotus Elise or similar.
Hmmm. I would put the GT86 on the same level as the MX5 i.e. basically a fixed head MX5 with a couple of token rear seats. It does have a dedicated "sports car" chassis and would be able to handle itself pretty well on track i.e. get a few hot laps in without cooking the brakes/bonfiring the tyres. GT86/BRZ is a sports car, something like a Vauxhall Tigra/Calibra is a sports coupe. Likewise, the Nissan Z cars. I would think of stuff like the Conti GT, DB11/DBS and front-engined V12 Ferraris as the quintessential GT cars. An excess of power, comfort and refinement. The Z cars are a bit lacking in this in my experience (however I've only passengered in a 350Z). Stuff like the S5/RS5 and C63 AMG Coupe are more junior GT cars for me but wouldn't be as fun as a Z on track but are as nice to ride in as they are to drive. BMW M4 is in a bit of a grey area.The Alpine A110 I really struggle with though, because I see it as a sports car(relatively light/2 seats) but then it is hobbled(for me) with it only having two pedals.
A proper sports car for me is a Caterham or a Lotus Elise or similar.
I think the thing is that there is a bit of a spectrum of sports cars. You've got your really focussed Caterhams, Elises and track cars, which are awesome on track but offer little daily useability, your useable everyday sports cars like the MX5/GT86/BRZ/350Z/370Z which have a few creature comforts and a bit more practicality to make them a bit easier to live with on a daily basis and then a fairly big step up in price to stuff like the Cayman/Boxster, Alfa 4C, Alpine etc and other vehicles like the new Supra, Mustang, Z4 and Mercedes SLC/SLK are technically still sports cars but more at the GT-end of the spectrum.
The big reason I personally don't class the GT86/BRZ as sports cars is because I had a S14a 200SX(same weight and power as those and a 2+2). I'd definitely class the 200 as a sporty Coupe and not a sports car for sure.
A GT86/BRZ(with a performance fettle) are certainly very much on my want list.
CABC said:
rockin said:
To my mind you are talking about "track cars" more than "sports cars", which are primarily road-going vehicles.
IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
i haven't always appreciated your posts.... but i'd agree with the above.IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
The Morgan is a museum piece, but also a fun sports car, even today. yes it's crude and the suspension the opposite of sophisticated, but a sports car doesn't need to be as competent as a GT, Sports GT, Supercar etc. on a smooth piece of curcy tarmac it entertains. the real complaint is that the tarmac must be smooth. i do own one but would happily swap it out if i were to be allowed.
rockin said:
To my mind you are talking about "track cars" more than "sports cars", which are primarily road-going vehicles.
IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
Atoms are great road cars, similarly Caterfields. MR2, not really, S2000 almost, Boxster yes. Elise, Exige, yes. Z4, if an M, SLK, no. IMO weight is a red herring. Enjoyable road-going performance is the key, usually with a convertible top and below supercar pricing. Mid-engine helps towards sports car status.
Definitely sports cars - MX5, Boxster, S2000, MR2, MGB.
Elise/Exige - sit on the borderline of track cars.
Alpine - sits on the borderline of coupe.
Z4/SLK - sports cars, even if not all that sporty.
Caterham/Atom - track cars, even if they can be driven to the pub twice a year.
Morgan - museum piece.
Ferrari Portofino - good question.
Weight is probably my biggest requirement for a sports car. You simply lose what makes a car fun when it’s over tyred etc
DoubleD said:
Some people put 1000s of road miles a year on a Caterham. Thats 1 very long sunny afternoon driving to the pub!
What people consider as too hard core for daily use softens with time (or age) I've daily'd a Caterham, Elise and motorcycles - but wouldn't now. That is partly an age thing - I'd regard a heater as an essential for a daily now - but it's partly a perception of the norm. "Hard core" now means no aircon manual windows, no central locking, no infotainment etc. In the past sports cars had none of these as standard - and some were'nt even expensive options. bcr5784 said:
What people consider as too hard core for daily use softens with time (or age) I've daily'd a Caterham, Elise and motorcycles - but wouldn't now. That is partly an age thing - I'd regard a heater as an essential for a daily now - but it's partly a perception of the norm. "Hard core" now means no aircon manual windows, no central locking, no infotainment etc. In the past sports cars had none of these as standard - and some were'nt even expensive options.
Ironically the only car I have ever had air conditioning in was my Elise S2 111S 
I believe Lotus only had electric windows in the Elise as they were lighter than manual windows
rockin said:
Somebody remind me when I last saw one on the road. Was it 2014 or way back in 2003?
Yeah, you’re way off. Mine’s never been on track and does the school run whenever it’s half decent weather. Someone remind me when I last saw a Vette or Boxster being driven in anger?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 16th December 21:27
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