Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – vote here

[BenLowden]

Tallow said:

Now that's a Renauly-heavy list

Certainly is! If you missed the first thread, it is as nominated by PHers https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

There were nearly six on there...

[Robmarriott]

mstrbkr said:

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

[Tickle]

Robmarriott said:

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

I do love the Honda N/A engines. I've had a couple (DC2 and 5) and that's what put me off buying an EP3, the Integra's were better specc'd than the EP3 (UK). Shame the JDM EP3 didn't come to the UK, I think that would have been a better contender against the RS cars (Clio and Megs) in the original thread.

Should add, I still preferred my Clio's (200 and 182 Trophy) over the DC5.

[anonymous-user]

Robmarriott said:

mstrbkr said:

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

Where did you get that figure? Parkers says the price new was £16950.

[Robmarriott]

mstrbkr said:

Robmarriott said:

mstrbkr said:

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

Where did you get that figure? Parkers says the price new was £16950.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/honda/civic-2001/history

"Range broadened to include six-speed 2.0 litre chain-cam 200PS 3-door Type R priced at a reasonable £15,995 (a/c a £800 extra on this), which rapidly became a cult car (separate entry). "

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/honda/civic-...

"To bring the Type R in under £16,000, drivers are asked to make a small sacrifice. Air-conditioning is an £800 extra. But everything else is just right."

edit - I also remember them being 'cheap' at the time, when I was an impressionable 15 year old Max Power reader.

Edited by Robmarriott on Friday 6th December 17:31

[s m]

mstrbkr said:

Robmarriott said:

mstrbkr said:

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

Where did you get that figure? Parkers says the price new was £16950.

Was that £16950 with optional air con I wonder?

E.T.A. Beat me to it above!

[Niffty951]

In the words of Caspa "where's my Mini"

I can't believe the R53 Cooper S didn't even make the top 10.. for all it's done for the hot hatch world!

[Olivera]

Robmarriott said:

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

+1, hence why I voted for the EP3. It may not objectively be the best in outright performance terms, but its impact on the hot hatch segment in the early 2000s was quite something. The engine blew everything else away at the time, the rest of the car was pretty decent (6 speed gearbox, independent rear suspension), and the price was very affordable.

[white_goodman]

H1JJY said:

The V6 Clio is never a hot hatch.
And the MK5 Golf wasn’t that great or even the best hot hatch on that platform

Was there a better hot hatch than the mk5 GTI built on the same platform?

Kind of disappointed that the mk2 Focus ST/RS didn't make the cut. That engine and the ST was a proper performance bargain at launch. Good to see that the Golf R/RS3/A45 didn't make the cut though, as for me, they kind of miss the point and put straight line pace over fun. 20% for the 182 Trophy looks like a pretty convincing win but I'll stick with the EP3 Type-R for my top 21st century HH, although the mk7 Fiesta ST would run it close.

[Zarco]

Olivera said:

Robmarriott said:

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

+1, hence why I voted for the EP3. It may not objectively be the best in outright performance terms, but its impact on the hot hatch segment in the early 2000s was quite something. The engine blew everything else away at the time, the rest of the car was pretty decent (6 speed gearbox, independent rear suspension), and the price was very affordable.

It certainly does deserve some kudos for breaking the 200bhp barrier with what is a quite legendary engine now. I'm yet to drive a V-tec. Expect it will be in the back of an Elise if I ever do.

FWIW the new price may have been close, but second hand a 2yr old Clio was much more affordable. I didn't even entertain stretching to a CTR. In any case my heart was set on a 172 Cup after pouring over a buying guide in EVO for months. Think I'll always be a Renault Sport man now

Edited by Zarco on Friday 6th December 18:46

[white_goodman]

Zarco said:

It certainly does deserve some kudos for breaking the 200bhp barrier what is a quite legendary engine now. I'm yet to drive a V-tec. Expect it will be in the back of an Elise if I ever do.

FWIW the new price may have been close, but second hand a 2yr old Clio was much more affordable. I didn't even entertain stretching to a CTR. In any case my heart was set on a 172 Cup after pouring over a buying guide in EVO for months. Think I'll always be a Renault Sport man now

Not to mention insurance was really steep on Type Rs in the early 2000s. Really wanted an EP3/DC2 but I got quoted 3k to insure an EP3 Type-R at 24, which quickly knocked that idea on the head! Celica 190 with broadly similar performance, 800 pounds! Never got an insurance quote on an RS Clio but my 205 GTi was around 800 pounds TPFT.

[GPH]

Robmarriott said:

mstrbkr said:

Not only genuinely quicker than the standard car, it was £2100 (14%) cheaper than the regular 172 (£15095 > £12995).

The other thing to remember here, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was the price of the EP3 Civic Type R. £15995 in 2001, only £900 more than the Clio 172, despite having a (much) better engine (especially from a tuning perspective), more space, an extra gear, independent rear suspension and a less 'French' image, which was as much a problem in 2001 as it still seems to be now with people who have never owned a French car.

I love a Honda VTEC too as I did many miles in the first Civic VTi and owned an Integra DC2 but if you were talking about fun to drive and not how big the back seat is or suspension was made of ( it's what you do with it that counts as the Clio still handled and rode better even with a torsion beam suspension), the Clio 172 beat the Civic in contemporary tests when there were no class rivals for the 172 (as every other supermini was a lot less powerful) so the mags had to test it against bigger cars.

For example see EVO 37 in November 2001 when the Clio 172 beat the Civic, Golf V5 and MG ZS180

So the Clio 172/182 were just as ground breaking putting that much performance in a supermini.

If the standard 172 could beat the Civic then the later 182 Cup and Trophy walked it

[cerb4.5lee]

Looking at the poll currently the M140i is doing much better than I thought it would given the competition.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

white_goodman said:

Kind of disappointed that the mk2 Focus ST/RS didn't make the cut. That engine and the ST was a proper performance bargain at launch.

Had one before - a blue 3 door ST3 - and they are great. Good enough that I'm going to get another at some point in 2020. The 172 Cup would still get my vote over it though, they're just more thrilling. Only two reasons I'm getting another ST is that in my own mind I can't justify spending £4000 to get a Cup as perfect as mine was (sold at 55K, in PERFECT condition) which will by then be an 18 year old car, when for a few grand more I can get a 6-8 year old ST. If good ones were at £2000 you wouldn't be able to hold me back.

[MissChief]

I was going to say that I'm extremely disappointed that the 306 GTI-6/Rallye didn't make the list, but then I remembered they were from the 90's.

[GPH]

With Renault Sport owning this sector for 25 years since the Clio Williams, it is tragic that their product planning chief has said new CO2 targets and fines means there will not be another Clio RS.
You would have thought that when they make so many economical versions of the Clio that a few thousand higher polluting RS models could be absorbed into the mix of millions of cars Renault make a year.

From AutoExpress in October -
One of the defining factors why Renault bosses are leaning towards a hot electric ZOE is the collapse in a business case for the Clio RS. Ali Kasai said ever-tighter CO2 emissions targets made bringing the vehicle to market at an affordable price unachievable.

“Today a Clio RS would need very elaborate technology to reach lower CO2 levels. And by keeping the high performance necessary for such a vehicle, you would have to charge such a big premium that those customers would be mostly unable to afford it,” Kasai told us. “At the moment, even if we love sporty cars, as is our history, we can’t find the solution to that equation – it’s impossible."

Someone in Renault UK PR needs to send them the link to these 2 threads and tell them not to give up yet!

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

GPH said:

With Renault Sport owning this sector for 25 years since the Clio Williams, it is tragic that their product planning chief has said new CO2 targets and fines means there will not be another Clio RS.
You would have thought that when they make so many economical versions of the Clio that a few thousand higher polluting RS models could be absorbed into the mix of millions of cars Renault make a year.

From AutoExpress in October -
One of the defining factors why Renault bosses are leaning towards a hot electric ZOE is the collapse in a business case for the Clio RS. Ali Kasai said ever-tighter CO2 emissions targets made bringing the vehicle to market at an affordable price unachievable.

“Today a Clio RS would need very elaborate technology to reach lower CO2 levels. And by keeping the high performance necessary for such a vehicle, you would have to charge such a big premium that those customers would be mostly unable to afford it,” Kasai told us. “At the moment, even if we love sporty cars, as is our history, we can’t find the solution to that equation – it’s impossible."

Someone in Renault UK PR needs to send them the link to these 2 threads and tell them not to give up yet!

It's st like this which makes me fear for the future of the car, for enthusiasts.

[white_goodman]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Had one before - a blue 3 door ST3 - and they are great. Good enough that I'm going to get another at some point in 2020. The 172 Cup would still get my vote over it though, they're just more thrilling. Only two reasons I'm getting another ST is that in my own mind I can't justify spending £4000 to get a Cup as perfect as mine was (sold at 55K, in PERFECT condition) which will by then be an 18 year old car, when for a few grand more I can get a 6-8 year old ST. If good ones were at £2000 you wouldn't be able to hold me back.

I hear you. I'd love another 205 GTi (probably a 1.9, as I owned a 1.6 back in the day) and one would still feature in my dream 10 car garage but I just wouldn't be able to justify the expense in reality, especially as it's not a very practical daily driver in 2019. Until fairly recently, I had an R56 MINI Cooper which got fairly close and a mk7 Fiesta ST might not be far off either (although I am yet to drive one) and quite affordable right now but a friend used to have an orange mk2.5 Focus ST which I drove occasionally and I loved that car. He got all sensible when he found out he had a baby on the way and chopped it in for a mk3 Focus 1.6 but in reality, I think that the ST as well as being fun and characterful would still have made a really good family car.

[MRobbins1987]

I owned pretty much the perfect spec EP3 for a couple of years, 240+ bhp, lsd, suspension mods, great car but flawed in areas that ruin the experience, the steering had little if any feel and the suspension was never good enough to feel like you could really attack a b road. I tried a few set ups but it was never good enough.

I've also owned two Clio 182's one a Cup and the other a FF with cup pack which ended up fully track prepped, the Clio's wipe the floor with the EP3. If you haven't had the pleasure of driving one, do. Closest modernish hot hatch that builds on the original recipe, small, light, basic, raw, fun. I rate them on par with the 205 GTI and that's why my vote is going on the 182 Trophy.

I've also owned or driven the following, 205 GTI 1.6, FN2 Type R, 206 GTI, both new Civic Type R's, Leon Cupra 290, BMW M140i, Mini Cooper JCW, Megane 250 Cup, Abarth 595 Competizione, Mk1 Swift Sport and I'm currently driving a BMW 130i which I'm finding a really nice all-rounder.

On a B road in the UK it would be a tough call between the 205 and the 182's for which keys I grabbed to go for a drive out of the above.

[anonymous-user]

Looking at the votes, Renault have smashed it by a country mile and deservedly so.

Surpised the EP3 gets so many votes, a Megane R26 is a far better car let alone the R26R.