Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – vote here
Poll: Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – vote here
Voting Closed
Total Members Polled: 542
Discussion
DoubleD said:
Im surprised that the Golf is getting votes, it fails at the most important thing that a hot hatch needs, fun!
Because it is the hot hatch for everyone, the ultimate all rounder. Classless - You can drive one without worrying about looking like an oik. And not devoid of fun either!Hub said:
DoubleD said:
Im surprised that the Golf is getting votes, it fails at the most important thing that a hot hatch needs, fun!
Because it is the hot hatch for everyone, the ultimate all rounder. Classless - You can drive one without worrying about looking like an oik. And not devoid of fun either!I found it such a disappointing car.
MRobbins1987 said:
I owned pretty much the perfect spec EP3 for a couple of years, 240+ bhp, lsd, suspension mods, great car but flawed in areas that ruin the experience, the steering had little if any feel and the suspension was never good enough to feel like you could really attack a b road. I tried a few set ups but it was never good enough.
I've also owned two Clio 182's one a Cup and the other a FF with cup pack which ended up fully track prepped, the Clio's wipe the floor with the EP3. If you haven't had the pleasure of driving one, do. Closest modernish hot hatch that builds on the original recipe, small, light, basic, raw, fun. I rate them on par with the 205 GTI and that's why my vote is going on the 182 Trophy.
I've also owned or driven the following, 205 GTI 1.6, FN2 Type R, 206 GTI, both new Civic Type R's, Leon Cupra 290, BMW M140i, Mini Cooper JCW, Megane 250 Cup, Abarth 595 Competizione, Mk1 Swift Sport and I'm currently driving a BMW 130i which I'm finding a really nice all-rounder.
On a B road in the UK it would be a tough call between the 205 and the 182's for which keys I grabbed to go for a drive out of the above.
Totally agree - I am not sure where the EP3 is getting all these votes from. I owned an EP3 Premier Edition, and it requires modifications to "fix" the steering. Yeah, the engine is great but so is the F4R in the Clios. A standard Clio 172 Cup or 182 Trophy needs nothing. They feel spot on out of the box.I've also owned two Clio 182's one a Cup and the other a FF with cup pack which ended up fully track prepped, the Clio's wipe the floor with the EP3. If you haven't had the pleasure of driving one, do. Closest modernish hot hatch that builds on the original recipe, small, light, basic, raw, fun. I rate them on par with the 205 GTI and that's why my vote is going on the 182 Trophy.
I've also owned or driven the following, 205 GTI 1.6, FN2 Type R, 206 GTI, both new Civic Type R's, Leon Cupra 290, BMW M140i, Mini Cooper JCW, Megane 250 Cup, Abarth 595 Competizione, Mk1 Swift Sport and I'm currently driving a BMW 130i which I'm finding a really nice all-rounder.
On a B road in the UK it would be a tough call between the 205 and the 182's for which keys I grabbed to go for a drive out of the above.
mstrbkr said:
Yeah, the engine is great but so is the F4R in the Clios.
The F4R is good, but it's not greatThe K20 is considerably better and I'm saying that as a 182 owner.
Mine has port matched inlets, a remap, sports cat and a janspeed exhaust and it made a grand total of 181bhp at RS tuning. They just don't make the power they should do. Other than a set of cams, I'm pretty much at the maximum I could get to without spending bucketloads of money.
The valvetrain is crap, anything over the standard rev limit and the rocker arms make the worst noise known to man, not that that's an issue anyway because the stroke is so long, it won't rev much more than it already does anyway.
The K20 on the other hand has an 86mm bore and 86mm stroke, they rev well over 9000rpm without too much trouble, the head flows better than the F4R and with several simple bolt on bits, even stuff from other Hondas, they'll make monster power before you even consider forced induction.
Honestly, the K20 is so far into a different league, it's practically a different sport altogether. It's the greatest 4 cylinder engine of all time.
Robmarriott said:
The F4R is good, but it's not great
The K20 is considerably better and I'm saying that as a 182 owner.
Mine has port matched inlets, a remap, sports cat and a janspeed exhaust and it made a grand total of 181bhp at RS tuning. They just don't make the power they should do. Other than a set of cams, I'm pretty much at the maximum I could get to without spending bucketloads of money.
The valvetrain is crap, anything over the standard rev limit and the rocker arms make the worst noise known to man, not that that's an issue anyway because the stroke is so long, it won't rev much more than it already does anyway.
The K20 on the other hand has an 86mm bore and 86mm stroke, they rev well over 9000rpm without too much trouble, the head flows better than the F4R and with several simple bolt on bits, even stuff from other Hondas, they'll make monster power before you even consider forced induction.
Honestly, the K20 is so far into a different league, it's practically a different sport altogether. It's the greatest 4 cylinder engine of all time.
Okay, I stand corrected! Greatest 4 cylinder of all time though... Doesn't Honda's own F20C (Honda S2000) beat it?The K20 is considerably better and I'm saying that as a 182 owner.
Mine has port matched inlets, a remap, sports cat and a janspeed exhaust and it made a grand total of 181bhp at RS tuning. They just don't make the power they should do. Other than a set of cams, I'm pretty much at the maximum I could get to without spending bucketloads of money.
The valvetrain is crap, anything over the standard rev limit and the rocker arms make the worst noise known to man, not that that's an issue anyway because the stroke is so long, it won't rev much more than it already does anyway.
The K20 on the other hand has an 86mm bore and 86mm stroke, they rev well over 9000rpm without too much trouble, the head flows better than the F4R and with several simple bolt on bits, even stuff from other Hondas, they'll make monster power before you even consider forced induction.
Honestly, the K20 is so far into a different league, it's practically a different sport altogether. It's the greatest 4 cylinder engine of all time.
Robmarriott said:
Honestly, the K20 is so far into a different league, it's practically a different sport altogether. It's the greatest 4 cylinder engine of all time.
The sort of thing a true fanboy would say it's a good engine no doubt but greatest 4 cylinder of all time? Don't be ridiculous, it makes barely 200bhp as standard and sod all torque.Elatino1 said:
The sort of thing a true fanboy would say it's a good engine no doubt but greatest 4 cylinder of all time? Don't be ridiculous, it makes barely 200bhp as standard and sod all torque.
That's something a hater would say when the k20a, found in the dc5, makes 220.Unless turbo/supercharged d, most 4 cylinder engines are going to have sod all torque
Hater? How very American. I have had the engine in car before and wouldn't have bought it if I didn't like it.
The fact though is that nobody said best n/a 4 cylinder engine in which case yes the K20 is certainly up there with the best. However a turbocharger/supercharger makes many other engines much more powerful, torquey and flexible which the K20 doesn't come with as standard.
The fact though is that nobody said best n/a 4 cylinder engine in which case yes the K20 is certainly up there with the best. However a turbocharger/supercharger makes many other engines much more powerful, torquey and flexible which the K20 doesn't come with as standard.
lemmingjames said:
Unless turbo/supercharged d, most 4 cylinder engines are going to have sod all torque
True to a point - but the Honda engine does feel flat at low revs and only comes alive when revved. Some actually like that all or nothing characteristic, but it does mean you have to driving at (say) 8 tenths to enjoy it. The more progressive delivery of the 182 Trophy engine allows you to enjoy the car at a less frenetic pace too. Elatino1 said:
Robmarriott said:
Honestly, the K20 is so far into a different league, it's practically a different sport altogether. It's the greatest 4 cylinder engine of all time.
The sort of thing a true fanboy would say it's a good engine no doubt but greatest 4 cylinder of all time? Don't be ridiculous, it makes barely 200bhp as standard and sod all torque.If I was a true fanboy, I'd own one, which I don't and never have.
'Sod all torque' is often banded about but the EP3 had 144lb/ft, according to Parkers, where, for comparison to other NA hot hatches available at the time;
The Clio 182 had 148
206 GTi 180 had 152
Focus ST170 had 145
Corolla T Sport only had 133!
Fiesta ST, which wasn't arount til 2005 had 140lb/ft and even in 180bhp Cosworth/Caterham spec, it's only 143lb/ft
If you can feel the difference between the amount of torque between most of them, your arse dyno is better than mine.
My opinion is based on tuneability, none of the engines above are as easy to extract considerably more power than the K20.
What would you class as a better 4 cylinder? Lampredi? C20XE? S14? Mi16?
Robmarriott said:
'Sod all torque' is often banded about but the EP3 had 144lb/ft, according to Parkers, where, for comparison to other NA hot hatches available at the time;
In a way, I think the K20 was a victim of its own success here. It's torque figure was indeed perfectly respectable comparing it to other two litre naturally aspirated engines but is pretty rubbish comparing it to most other 200bhp engines (which tend to either be bigger or turbocharged). People with little knowlege of cars tended to simply compare it to "other 200bhp cars" against which it was, of course, lacking.
kambites said:
In a way, I think the K20 was a victim of its own success here. It's torque figure was indeed perfectly respectable comparing it to other two litre naturally aspirated engines but is pretty rubbish comparing it to most other 200bhp engines (which tend to either be bigger or turbocharged).
People with little knowlege of cars tended to simply compare it to "other 200bhp cars" against which it was, of course, lacking.
Even as someone who isn't a big fan of the power delivery of these VTEC engines, I do agree with this. Power is determined by torque and revs, so for more power, you need more of one (or both) of them. Honda were fairly unique in using revs to achieve the power, whereas most other manufacturers used torque (either by bigger capacity or more commonly, forced induction).People with little knowlege of cars tended to simply compare it to "other 200bhp cars" against which it was, of course, lacking.
The genius of VTEC is that it doesn't compromise bottom and mid range torque, but the engines are compared against rivals that use increased torque (via boost or ccs) to make their power.
I don't know what the peak power of a K20 is on the standard cam profiles (ie with VTEC disabled), but I suspect it would feel very tractable and 'torquey' compared with any other engine of that output.
Trying to choose my best hot hatch of the 21st century has made this Thursday's decision look like a piece of cake.
I have been fortunate to have owned or driven 6 cars on this list and been a passenger in 2 more.
My top three are the 172 Cup, 182 Trophy and the R26.R. (I'm not a Renault fanboy, I have just had a lot of them because they are very good cars.)
It was bloody hard to choose between the three of them. The 182 Trophy is probably the best for the road that you would want to own and use on a regular basis. In respect of the 172, obviously very similar to the 182 but not as polished. But that is why I will always have a soft spot for it - it always felt that little bit more feral than the 182.
In the end, I went for the Megane. I think it covers both road and track work better than the Clios. It was great on the road and great on the track. The other two were pretty good in both environments, but the Megane was a better balance of the two. Then add in the special edition features of the car (single piece seats, harnesses, carbon bonnet, cage, titanium exhaust, plastic glass etc) and you had a fantastic car. And the crazy thing was, after the obligatory discounts, they were still pretty cheap - less than £20k only a decade ago.
I know that some people will not want to take track ability into account as not everyone does trackdays and strictly speaking, hatches are not (traditionally) designed for track work. And if that was the case, my winner would probably be one of the Clios. However, I have taken track ability into account because a hot hatch is supposed to be the great all-rounder and is a cheap way into the trackday scene. A lot of people do take their hatches on track and I certainly did, therefore, I think you have to take it into account.
As for the limiting factors of the Megane which made it less easy to live with than a normal hot hatch (no rear seats, no radio, no normal seatbelts and seats that crippled me after 2 hours), the sheer brilliance and ability of the car far outshone these minor "problems".
I must give an honourable mention to the Megane Trophy R (the first one, not the latest one). It was surprising to see that not make the final list. The Trophy R was, IMO, right up there with the R26.R and in some ways bettered it. In fact, my most memorable track day was probably in the Trophy R. R26.R would still win though, by the narrowest of margins.
I have been fortunate to have owned or driven 6 cars on this list and been a passenger in 2 more.
My top three are the 172 Cup, 182 Trophy and the R26.R. (I'm not a Renault fanboy, I have just had a lot of them because they are very good cars.)
It was bloody hard to choose between the three of them. The 182 Trophy is probably the best for the road that you would want to own and use on a regular basis. In respect of the 172, obviously very similar to the 182 but not as polished. But that is why I will always have a soft spot for it - it always felt that little bit more feral than the 182.
In the end, I went for the Megane. I think it covers both road and track work better than the Clios. It was great on the road and great on the track. The other two were pretty good in both environments, but the Megane was a better balance of the two. Then add in the special edition features of the car (single piece seats, harnesses, carbon bonnet, cage, titanium exhaust, plastic glass etc) and you had a fantastic car. And the crazy thing was, after the obligatory discounts, they were still pretty cheap - less than £20k only a decade ago.
I know that some people will not want to take track ability into account as not everyone does trackdays and strictly speaking, hatches are not (traditionally) designed for track work. And if that was the case, my winner would probably be one of the Clios. However, I have taken track ability into account because a hot hatch is supposed to be the great all-rounder and is a cheap way into the trackday scene. A lot of people do take their hatches on track and I certainly did, therefore, I think you have to take it into account.
As for the limiting factors of the Megane which made it less easy to live with than a normal hot hatch (no rear seats, no radio, no normal seatbelts and seats that crippled me after 2 hours), the sheer brilliance and ability of the car far outshone these minor "problems".
I must give an honourable mention to the Megane Trophy R (the first one, not the latest one). It was surprising to see that not make the final list. The Trophy R was, IMO, right up there with the R26.R and in some ways bettered it. In fact, my most memorable track day was probably in the Trophy R. R26.R would still win though, by the narrowest of margins.
lemmingjames said:
Unless turbo/supercharged d, most 4 cylinder engines are going to have sod all torque
On the right road I do really appreciate a NA engine where you can stretch its legs and use all the revs. Although I also like the 4 cylinder 2 litre turbo engine in my Cooper S, it doesn't really have much power at only 189bhp. Yet it feels torquey and the torque comes in incredibly low at 1200rpm like a diesel. Some hate that, but it is nice to have the instant punch low down rather than having to be at 7000rpm to get the best from a NA engine. Although I've not driven one I think that I would find a Honda NA VTEC engine a bit frustrating if I used it daily. I'd love to experience one though, and whenever I watch videos of the EP3 the owners are always bouncing off the limiter!!
One of the things I really loved about my M140i is that it produced peak torque from 1450 RPM yet was happy to rev right through to 7k (and sounded lovely doing it too). The car had its flaws, but the engine was incredible on the road. I haven’t experienced another engine with such a wide useable rev range.
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