Best Hot Hatch of the 21st Century – vote here

[lestiq]

Chrismawa said:

+1 yeah me too!

I am too surprised to see the lack of Mini in this line up!

[cerb4.5lee]

Limpet said:

One of the things I really loved about my M140i is that it produced peak torque from 1450 RPM yet was happy to rev right through to 7k (and sounded lovey doing it too). The car had its flaws, but the engine was incredible. I haven’t experienced another engine with such a wide useable rev range.

I reckon I'd absolutely love that engine too. I really liked the engine in the M4 aswell when I drove one for similar reasons to you.

[Jon_S_Rally]

What a tough decision this turned into. I was torn between the R26-R, the 182 Trophy, the 200 Cup and the Fiesta ST. As a previous 172 Cup owner, it was hard not to vote for it, as it's my favourite car I've ever owned by some margin, despite not being the newest/fastest/most expensive. I think the Trophy probably pips it in terms of being an icon, though I would probably still take a Cup over a Trophy personally. The Fiesta ST came close, just because it caught the moment perfectly and sold in huge numbers. I love the 200 Cup but, while it is an incredible car, by the time it came out, perhaps the lack of turbo was starting to work against it. That just left the Megane. Perhaps not a true hot hatch in the fact it didn't have back seats, but as the first example of a manufacturer taking the format to the absolute extreme, creating a GT3 R-style car, really making the whole Nordschleife craze take-off and just generally being mental, it ended up with my vote. A truly bonkers car and something that should be recognised.

If any of the above win though, that's fine with me. The Trophy is clearly out in front right now, and that's fine by me. Renault have bossed the hot hatch segment for years. No brand has consistently made such great examples of the breed. Such a shame that we are unlikely to see another hot Clio. A real cock-up in my view.

Surprised the Civic has so many votes and can't believe the M140i is even on the list. It's nowhere near the best of this century, not even close.

[bcr5784]

Limpet said:

The genius of VTEC is that it doesn't compromise bottom and mid range torque, but the engines are compared against rivals that use increased torque (via boost or ccs) to make their power.

I don't know what the peak power of a K20 is on the standard cam profiles (ie with VTEC disabled), but I suspect it would feel very tractable and 'torquey' compared with any other engine of that output.

Whatever the actual torque figure - my mates (NA) Civic Type R did feel flat at low revs compared with the Trophy - and he sold it as a result. Torquey certainly wasn't a term that you would use. Whether that was a throttle response issue (that colours your judgement a lot) or something else I can't say. Weight is probably part of the equation.

[kambites]

bcr5784 said:

Whatever the actual torque figure - my mates (NA) Civic Type R did feel flat at low revs compared with the Trophy - and he sold it as a result. Torquey certainly wasn't a term that you would use. Whether that was a throttle response issue (that colours your judgement a lot) or something else I can't say. Weight is probably part of the equation.

I suspect it's almostly entirely a matter of weight. The Civic is a much more... substantial car than the Clio.

[downhillmalins]

Renaultsport Clio 172 Cup

super light, raw and lively. perfect on a British b-road or on track

[vz-r_dave]

Shame the DC2 didn't make the list, that and the R26 Megane are a cut above the rest on this list. By far the most involving well out together cars of this bunch. Surprised the Clio is winning given it has the driving position of a bus.

[Robmarriott]

kambites said:

I suspect it's almostly entirely a matter of weight. The Civic is a much more... substantial car than the Clio.

A fair chunk more but not as much of a gap as you might expect. The 172 Cup was 1021kg, the Trophy 1090kg. The Civic is quoted at 1204 although I don’t know if that is with AC or not, suspect it’s without,

Bearing in mind the K20 makes factory quoted figures on the dyno and the F4R does not, the power to weight ratios are pretty similar between all three.

[Cups Renault]

Wow, what a list of great motors.

Most of them bringing power and poise to the people.

The GTA, the sound, that engine, that sense of occasion.

The Trophy is the epitome of finesse, with wonderfully poised feedback and good brawny engine.

The 172 cup gets it for me. As a 24 year old it was the natural evolution from 205gti s and was so adaptable, dog legging on demand and having great poke. Small and big engine, the recipe. The Trophy I wanted so badly but was a cautious sole at that age and worried about the amazing Sachs dampers cost for servicing. Oh I wish I had man maths'd it.

Really glad to see the m140i. Maligned by the magazines and official motoring press, it is a modern, getting into your 30s response to the afore mentioned motors.
For those years when you can no longer 9/10ths it everywhere!

Good to see none of the £40k+four pot fart boxes have made it on the final list too.

Edited by Cups Renault on Monday 9th December 12:32

[urquattroGus]

BMW M Coupe, it’s hot and it’s a hatch.....

[Cups Renault]

Jon_S_Rally said:

Surprised the Civic has so many votes and can't believe the M140i is even on the list. It's nowhere near the best of this century, not even close.

Is in there for similar reasons to the GTA

Probably one of if not the best drivetrain to ever land in a hothatch. In gear acceleration is amazing, whilst still being relatively frugal on a run, the noise and daring to go rwd and utterly unique.

In a sea of over blown farting 4 pots the 140i offered difference and did so at a keen price by a premium marque.

It deserves to be there.

[robbieheward]

Clio 182 Trophy.

Ran one for three years. Sold it last year and have regretted selling it ever since....

[kambites]

Robmarriott said:

Bearing in mind the K20 makes factory quoted figures on the dyno and the F4R does not, the power to weight ratios are pretty similar between all three.

But it's torque to weight ratio we're discussing; I suspect the F4R generates similar torque to the K20A in reality so a 10% difference in weight corresponds to a 10% difference in torque to weight ratio.

I know the K20 feels like it has an immense amount of torque when you put it in an Elise, which is "only" around 200kg lighter again.

[Robmarriott]

Fair point.

[DoubleD]

The best sounding (name) engine has to be Renaults......

F4RT

[Beno66]

Clio 182 Trophy

[Jon_S_Rally]

vz-r_dave said:

Shame the DC2 didn't make the list...

I suspect that's because it's a coupe and not a hatchback

Cups Renault said:

Is in there for similar reasons to the GTA

Probably one of if not the best drivetrain to ever land in a hothatch. In gear acceleration is amazing, whilst still being relatively frugal on a run, the noise and daring to go rwd and utterly unique.

In a sea of over blown farting 4 pots the 140i offered difference and did so at a keen price by a premium marque.

It deserves to be there.

I think that's a case of 'each to his own'. I get the argument about it being a bit different to the norm by being RWD and six-pot, but it is a car with many, many flaws. Many might argue that we don't live "in a sea of over blown farting 4 pots" but that the six-pot, RWD BMW was archaic, making buyers sacrifice interior space and practicality purely because BMW refused to wake up to realities of the segment. Proven by the fact that they've now joined others in making the 1-series transverse.

An interesting car for sure, and a good one in some ways, but this is for the absolute cream of the hot hatch crop. For me, the engine doesn't make it worthy of the top ten, given some of the simply stunning hot hatches we've seen in the last two decades. Not because it's a bad car, but because there are so many other good cars.

I actually think the old E81/87 130i is by far more the more interesting car to be honest. I'd rather have seen that on the list.

Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Monday 9th December 13:23

[anonymous-user]

Robmarriott said:

Why so angry?

If I was a true fanboy, I'd own one, which I don't and never have.

'Sod all torque' is often banded about but the EP3 had 144lb/ft, according to Parkers, where, for comparison to other NA hot hatches available at the time;

The Clio 182 had 148
206 GTi 180 had 152
Focus ST170 had 145
Corolla T Sport only had 133!
Fiesta ST, which wasn't arount til 2005 had 140lb/ft and even in 180bhp Cosworth/Caterham spec, it's only 143lb/ft

If you can feel the difference between the amount of torque between most of them, your arse dyno is better than mine.

My opinion is based on tuneability, none of the engines above are as easy to extract considerably more power than the K20.

What would you class as a better 4 cylinder? Lampredi? C20XE? S14? Mi16?

No anger at all. I never said it was lacking of torque compared to another N/A car rather than the fact it is generally lacking of torque due to no charger system and so to say best 4pot ever seemed odd to me when some have twice the power and torque.

For me a 4cylinder engine without forced induction is never going to be a patch on one with forced induction. As a N/A engine indeed it is hard to beat but 140lf/ft of torque is bugger all in my book. You are noe comparing it to N/A hatches only but there were turbocharged ones available at the time also.

If your opinion is as you say based on tuneability then fair enough but your first previous post did not seem to indicate that.

[WCZ]

voted trophy, the r26r just didn't feel as fun when I drove it

the mk7 fiesta is very very good though

[Itsallicanafford]

there appears to be something wrong with your list, there is no Mk3 Megane on it?