RE: McLaren 620R revealed as £250k GT4 clone
Discussion
JxJ Jr. said:
TypeRTim said:
JxJ Jr. said:
Yep. And it will be, again and again until either:
1. McLaren come up with something that is actually discernibly different (V6, I hear?)
2. Employees/fans stop claiming McLaren make anything other than one car with minor tweaks
3. Critics accept that minor tweaks equate to being a different model
1.) Why? Why go through the expense of designing and developing a new engine architecture when the existing one fits the bill.1. McLaren come up with something that is actually discernibly different (V6, I hear?)
2. Employees/fans stop claiming McLaren make anything other than one car with minor tweaks
3. Critics accept that minor tweaks equate to being a different model
2.) They make 4 distinct models with very different purposes and component make-up.
- The Sport Series has 'normal' independant coil sprung suspension, is much more compact and has simple static aero.
- The Super Series has the hydraulically linked anti-dive and anti-roll suspension set up, active aero, is physically larger and has a bigger engine
- The Ultimate Series has cutting edge technology in both materials and aerodynamics
- The GT is packaged completely differently with a focus on comfort and refinement
3.) If you can't tell a 570s from a Senna and can't appreciate that they are completely different vehicles then you are a blind fool.
Yes they share elements and an engineering philosophy, but that's because it is a company with limited resource and also some of them are the best tools for the job.
Are you suggesting that they should bin the carbon fibre tub for something inferior in say the sports series, just to make a difference to the car on paper. They invested a hell of a lot of money in to the design, development and refinement of that technology and it is the best tool for the job thanks to its strength/weight ratio.
Or should they have develop a brand spanking new v12 for the Senna that delivers the same power output that was achieved by revising elements of the V8, just to make it a bit different?
Or should they have compromised the weight, handling and packaging of the GT, developed a brand new chassis, engine subframes, gearbox and electronics architecture bespoke to that single model just to move the engine to the front to make it more like a 'traditional' GT?
To say that the Sports Series, Super Series, GT and Ultimate Series are the same cars with MINOR tweaks is ridiculous.
Are you saying then that the Skoda Octavia and VW Golf are the same car? They share the same platforms and engines. Both are front wheel drive, powered by Inilne 4 engines. That must make them exactly the same car with minor tweaks in your mind.
TypeRTim said:
Not this again.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
So you haven't actually answered his questions. Do you feel it would be better for McLaren and for the purchaser if they designed a cheaper aluminium chassis for the 570S instead of using the carbon tub?
The only thing that should be on a manufacturers mind is growing their client base and thus sales.McLaren have got this VERY wrong IMO
Firstly: If you want a proper GT to drive to somewhere South of Paris with a reasonable amount of luggage stored in a proper boot. You want a 2+2, not a 2 seat mid engine car where the luggage space is on display above the hot engine. Then you'll be looking at Aston, Bentley or Ferrari at this price point. McLaren don't offer anything comparable. They are losing sales by not bringing to launch a proper competitor.
Secondly. Their range is constantly being renewed. This is not news, but buyers get the arse when their brand new car is already superseded within 5-6 months. It kills residuals. It doesn't make buyers love the brand. And as result, next time they wont buy another McLaren unless they REALLY want whatever car it is.
Oh and to the above screecher who asked about Octavia vs Golf. Yes they ARE different cars. Golf is generally a Hatchback. Octavia is a) cheaper and b) generally a saloon. By doing that VAG hit 2 sectors of the buying public. Those who want a 5 door hatch and those that want a 4 door slightly larger, and a bit cheaper saloon. For very little in terms of production cost difference.
If only McLaren realised that not everyone with £200K to spend (or £10K deposit + £1K a month) wants a 2 door, carbon tubbed, mid engine V8TT car...
S1KRR said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
So you haven't actually answered his questions. Do you feel it would be better for McLaren and for the purchaser if they designed a cheaper aluminium chassis for the 570S instead of using the carbon tub?
The only thing that should be on a manufacturers mind is growing their client base and thus sales.McLaren have got this VERY wrong IMO
Firstly: If you want a proper GT to drive to somewhere South of Paris with a reasonable amount of luggage stored in a proper boot. You want a 2+2, not a 2 seat mid engine car where the luggage space is on display above the hot engine. Then you'll be looking at Aston, Bentley or Ferrari at this price point. McLaren don't offer anything comparable. They are losing sales by not bringing to launch a proper competitor.
Secondly. Their range is constantly being renewed. This is not news, but buyers get the arse when their brand new car is already superseded within 5-6 months. It kills residuals. It doesn't make buyers love the brand. And as result, next time they wont buy another McLaren unless they REALLY want whatever car it is.
Oh and to the above screecher who asked about Octavia vs Golf. Yes they ARE different cars. Golf is generally a Hatchback. Octavia is a) cheaper and b) generally a saloon. By doing that VAG hit 2 sectors of the buying public. Those who want a 5 door hatch and those that want a 4 door slightly larger, and a bit cheaper saloon. For very little in terms of production cost difference.
If only McLaren realised that not everyone with £200K to spend (or £10K deposit + £1K a month) wants a 2 door, carbon tubbed, mid engine V8TT car...
Which McLaren got superseded within 5-6 months? I think it's usually 3 years or so, isn't it? 12c > 650S > 720S about 3 years apart each. 570S/600LT/620R are only 1st generation cars. P1 got replaced by the Senna, only after a number of years though? Or are you saying the 600LT is a replacement for the 570S? In which case a GT3 is a replacement for the 911 S?
But yes, I agree they need more cars in their range to suit a wider buying demographic, but to say they replace car every 5-6 months simply isn't true IMO.
S1KRR said:
The only thing that should be on a manufacturers mind is growing their client base and thus sales.
McLaren have got this VERY wrong IMO
Firstly: If you want a proper GT to drive to somewhere South of Paris with a reasonable amount of luggage stored in a proper boot. You want a 2+2, not a 2 seat mid engine car where the luggage space is on display above the hot engine. Then you'll be looking at Aston, Bentley or Ferrari at this price point. McLaren don't offer anything comparable. They are losing sales by not bringing to launch a proper competitor.
Secondly. Their range is constantly being renewed. This is not news, but buyers get the arse when their brand new car is already superseded within 5-6 months. It kills residuals. It doesn't make buyers love the brand. And as result, next time they wont buy another McLaren unless they REALLY want whatever car it is.
Oh and to the above screecher who asked about Octavia vs Golf. Yes they ARE different cars. Golf is generally a Hatchback. Octavia is a) cheaper and b) generally a saloon. By doing that VAG hit 2 sectors of the buying public. Those who want a 5 door hatch and those that want a 4 door slightly larger, and a bit cheaper saloon. For very little in terms of production cost difference.
If only McLaren realised that not everyone with £200K to spend (or £10K deposit + £1K a month) wants a 2 door, carbon tubbed, mid engine V8TT car...
Screecher? Thanks mate. Just merely trying to point out his hypocrisy.McLaren have got this VERY wrong IMO
Firstly: If you want a proper GT to drive to somewhere South of Paris with a reasonable amount of luggage stored in a proper boot. You want a 2+2, not a 2 seat mid engine car where the luggage space is on display above the hot engine. Then you'll be looking at Aston, Bentley or Ferrari at this price point. McLaren don't offer anything comparable. They are losing sales by not bringing to launch a proper competitor.
Secondly. Their range is constantly being renewed. This is not news, but buyers get the arse when their brand new car is already superseded within 5-6 months. It kills residuals. It doesn't make buyers love the brand. And as result, next time they wont buy another McLaren unless they REALLY want whatever car it is.
Oh and to the above screecher who asked about Octavia vs Golf. Yes they ARE different cars. Golf is generally a Hatchback. Octavia is a) cheaper and b) generally a saloon. By doing that VAG hit 2 sectors of the buying public. Those who want a 5 door hatch and those that want a 4 door slightly larger, and a bit cheaper saloon. For very little in terms of production cost difference.
If only McLaren realised that not everyone with £200K to spend (or £10K deposit + £1K a month) wants a 2 door, carbon tubbed, mid engine V8TT car...
The Octavia is a hatch btw, not a saloon - 5 door liftback style. Maybe a better example would be the Leon and the Golf. According to jxj, applying the same rules that he uses to judge every Mclaren as the same, they are the exact same car with minor differences.
Mclaren renewing their range every 5-6 months is a myth. The 570S was around for 3 years before the 600LT was released.
The 650S was around for 3 years before it got replaced by the 720S. The 675 was a year after the 650, but sold alongside rather than instead of. In the same way porsche releases the GT versions of the 911 separately to the base Carrera.
They released the 991 GT3 2 years after the base Carrera. They later followed that with the GT3RS 2 years later. They then followed that with the R 2 years after that. Then there was a new GT3 in the same year. And then a new GT3RS the following year.
Porsche are terrible for releasing countless minor tweaks to the 911, but they don't get anywhere near the same smear as Mclaren.
S1KRR said:
Secondly. Their range is constantly being renewed. This is not news, but buyers get the arse when their brand new car is already superseded within 5-6 months. It kills residuals. It doesn't make buyers love the brand. And as result, next time they wont buy another McLaren unless they REALLY want whatever car it is. .
Please provide examples of which cars from the current lineup (barring the early 12C to 650 mis-steps) has been refreshed every 5 to 6 months?If you mean 570S to 600LT to 620R then you are wrong. They are different variations of the same model - as has been said multiple times on this thread no different to a 911 Turbo, GT3 and GT3 RS release cadence.
Please provide other examples to support this baseless statement
S1KRR said:
If only McLaren realised that not everyone with £200K to spend (or £10K deposit + £1K a month) wants a 2 door, carbon tubbed, mid engine V8TT car...
10K Deposit wouldn't be enough but I do like the idea of a 200k car at 1k a month, a 16 and a half year term for a car, now that's a proper payment plan!This debate arises on every McLaren thread.
The truth is a lack of variation in terms of x3 key ingredients is undeniable:
-Twin turbo V8
-Gearbox
-Carbon tub
It’s no wonder many will claim it’s the same car each time.
It’s certainly not helped by the plethora of special editions and MSO customer builds which are often presented by the media (or the McLaren MSO PR department) as new cars. Obviously they are not.
However, if you’ve driven the core range of a 570s, 720S, P1 or Senna you will know that they look and feel like very different cars.
For example the hydraulic active suspension on the 720S gives a completely different sensation to the more convention spring and damper set up on the 570S. The enlarged and revised engine also delivers a much more brutal power delivery and feels in a different league of performance to the Sports Series.
The active aero on the Senna feels nothing like a 720S and the P1 hybrid power train is a unique experience.
Truth is not many people have driven the full range and never will so understandably will continue to say they are all the same car.
A small few will have driven them all and may still maintain they are all too similar but not many.
McLaren have undoubtedly exploited their existing architecture as far as it will go and no doubt we’ll soon see some new hybrid and EV models.
But as a manufacturer of high performance drivers cars, don’t expect to see any front engined, four door, four cylinder, manual or SUV type cars in the future.
The fact remains, the basic ingredients of a carbon chassis, mid engine, x2 seats is the best way to deliver a brilliant, lightweight, high performance drivers car. I doubt McLaren will deviate from this just for the sake of it.
Besides, Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini all offer cars in different segments so if you really want a fast SUV, take your pick from one of theirs.
The truth is a lack of variation in terms of x3 key ingredients is undeniable:
-Twin turbo V8
-Gearbox
-Carbon tub
It’s no wonder many will claim it’s the same car each time.
It’s certainly not helped by the plethora of special editions and MSO customer builds which are often presented by the media (or the McLaren MSO PR department) as new cars. Obviously they are not.
However, if you’ve driven the core range of a 570s, 720S, P1 or Senna you will know that they look and feel like very different cars.
For example the hydraulic active suspension on the 720S gives a completely different sensation to the more convention spring and damper set up on the 570S. The enlarged and revised engine also delivers a much more brutal power delivery and feels in a different league of performance to the Sports Series.
The active aero on the Senna feels nothing like a 720S and the P1 hybrid power train is a unique experience.
Truth is not many people have driven the full range and never will so understandably will continue to say they are all the same car.
A small few will have driven them all and may still maintain they are all too similar but not many.
McLaren have undoubtedly exploited their existing architecture as far as it will go and no doubt we’ll soon see some new hybrid and EV models.
But as a manufacturer of high performance drivers cars, don’t expect to see any front engined, four door, four cylinder, manual or SUV type cars in the future.
The fact remains, the basic ingredients of a carbon chassis, mid engine, x2 seats is the best way to deliver a brilliant, lightweight, high performance drivers car. I doubt McLaren will deviate from this just for the sake of it.
Besides, Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini all offer cars in different segments so if you really want a fast SUV, take your pick from one of theirs.
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