What is a drivers car to you?
Discussion
To me, a drivers car is a car that is fun to be in at all times - whether you're on track or in traffic. A decent amount of driver input is preferred with the car being more focussed as being something you drive as a hobby over something that is the perfect blend of practicality and functionality as a daily. I would say that an auto box is ok - as is electric steering and a lot of other drivers aids - but it would be on a car by car basis. I don't think it is as black and white as saying only manual is a drivers car etc.
Tickle said:
Light (sub-1000kg)
Seats no more than 2, I don't have need for a passenger seat, I have never had a passenger when out for a drive.
Manual
No servo brakes
No PAS
No roof, need a soft top for if it does rain when out
I appreciate that the posted question is subjective, given that it is "what is a drivers car TO YOU" but these requirements seem a bit OTT, they might be your personal ideal traits in a drivers car but surely you can't honestly say that anything that doesn't meet these overly strict requirements isn't a drivers car to you? That rules an extremely large portion of proper drivers cars. Seats no more than 2, I don't have need for a passenger seat, I have never had a passenger when out for a drive.
Manual
No servo brakes
No PAS
No roof, need a soft top for if it does rain when out
YouTalkinToMe said:
I'll list some cars and ask if they are 'drivers cars'? or at least your opinion..
Audi RS6?
Mercedes SLK/SLC?
Rolls-Royce Wraith Coupe?
Saab 900 Turbo?
Lexus IS?
Honda Accord?
Ford Fiesta?
i think i know where you're going with that.... Audi RS6?
Mercedes SLK/SLC?
Rolls-Royce Wraith Coupe?
Saab 900 Turbo?
Lexus IS?
Honda Accord?
Ford Fiesta?
despite their credentials they wouldn't be on my A list
TREMAiNE said:
To me, a drivers car is a car that is fun to be in at all times - whether you're on track or in traffic. A decent amount of driver input is preferred with the car being more focussed as being something you drive as a hobby over something that is the perfect blend of practicality and functionality as a daily. I would say that an auto box is ok - as is electric steering and a lot of other drivers aids - but it would be on a car by car basis. I don't think it is as black and white as saying only manual is a drivers car etc.
Yes, indeed; however, you missed the part where I stated 'my current driver's car requirements'Tickle said:
Light (sub-1000kg)
Seats no more than 2, I don't have need for a passenger seat, I have never had a passenger when out for a drive.
Manual
No servo brakes
No PAS
No roof, need a soft top for if it does rain when out
I appreciate that the posted question is subjective, given that it is "what is a drivers car TO YOU" but these requirements seem a bit OTT, they might be your personal ideal traits in a drivers car but surely you can't honestly say that anything that doesn't meet these overly strict requirements isn't a drivers car to you? That rules an extremely large portion of proper drivers cars. Seats no more than 2, I don't have need for a passenger seat, I have never had a passenger when out for a drive.
Manual
No servo brakes
No PAS
No roof, need a soft top for if it does rain when out
I wouldn't buy another DC2, 200 Cup or Clio Trophy as I don't need to lug extra seats or weight with me, I'm lucky to have other cars that are required to do more than my S1 Elise does.
I will stand by what I said in my original response though, a driver's car should offer enough driver pleasure and engagement to make me get out of bed early on a weekend and just get out and drive. My Renault Sports and Honda's did offer that, and I would most definitely class them as very good drivers cars, the Lotus just does it better.
Alex said:
YouTalkinToMe said:
I'll list some cars and ask if they are 'drivers cars'? or at least your opinion..
Audi RS6?
Mercedes SLK/SLC?
Rolls-Royce Wraith Coupe?
Saab 900 Turbo?
Lexus IS?
Honda Accord?
Ford Fiesta?
The Ford Fiesta.Audi RS6?
Mercedes SLK/SLC?
Rolls-Royce Wraith Coupe?
Saab 900 Turbo?
Lexus IS?
Honda Accord?
Ford Fiesta?
greenarrow said:
For me its not power and grip, but involvement.
My last car (Insignia) had more power and grip than my current shed (MK1 Focus 1.6) but the former was definitely not a driver's car, whereas IMO the current one definitely is.
Would you take it out for a drive just for the heck of it? For me that's another distinction of a driver's car
I've taken every car I've owned out for lots of drives for the heck of it, including the Marina estate and the Insignia diesel My last car (Insignia) had more power and grip than my current shed (MK1 Focus 1.6) but the former was definitely not a driver's car, whereas IMO the current one definitely is.
Would you take it out for a drive just for the heck of it? For me that's another distinction of a driver's car
The Evo Triangle in the Insipid, in the snow, on summer tyres was interesting...
Having said that, the XE is definitely the best drivers car I've owned, and probably the best I've driven, although it is a bit hard to compare a VXR8 around Donington with an XE on real roads.
It's all relative isn't it? A 5-series is usually viewed as a "drivers car" not because it's particularly engaging in the absolute sense but because it's more fun to drive than its immediate competition. Conversely an Audi TT is quite fun in isolation but its competing with the Cayman...
CABC said:
YouTalkinToMe said:
I'll list some cars and ask if they are 'drivers cars'? or at least your opinion..
Audi RS6?
Mercedes SLK/SLC?
Rolls-Royce Wraith Coupe?
Saab 900 Turbo?
Lexus IS?
Honda Accord?
Ford Fiesta?
i think i know where you're going with that.... Audi RS6?
Mercedes SLK/SLC?
Rolls-Royce Wraith Coupe?
Saab 900 Turbo?
Lexus IS?
Honda Accord?
Ford Fiesta?
despite their credentials they wouldn't be on my A list
Must be nimble, ie change direction easily - so light weight and low COG.
Good control feedback is very important, as is linear response.
Good unassisted steering lets you feel what the front wheels are doing, at the expense of a more nervous feel and more kickback from road irregularities. That doesn't automatically exclude PAS, but many cars have ridiculously numb amd over-assisted steering.
Ditto brakes - servo assist is fine, but it shouldn't be so boosted that you can't modulate the pressure well.
And throttle - DBW systems where 1/2 pedal travel = 4/5 throttle opening annoy the hell out of me, as do laggy throttles that don't react quickly to pedal movement.
Gears - I prefer manual, but a good auto is fine.
Comfortable (enough).
In Aus, that means air-conditioning and a roof, if you want to drive in summer.
An engine that feels willing to rev - it doesn't have to be super powerful, but too many engines just fall away and feel "flat" in the top 1/3 of their range.
By a staggering coincidence, my 30+ year old MR2 fits those requirements quite well.
A series LR may be challenging to drive, and it may even be rewarding to be able to find all 4 forward gears, and stay in one lane using only 1/2 turn of the steering wheel when the wind changes, but it's never going to be a drivers car as such.
It's a utilitarian piece of farm machinery.
Yes, I have driven them, and enjoyed it too, but really
Good control feedback is very important, as is linear response.
Good unassisted steering lets you feel what the front wheels are doing, at the expense of a more nervous feel and more kickback from road irregularities. That doesn't automatically exclude PAS, but many cars have ridiculously numb amd over-assisted steering.
Ditto brakes - servo assist is fine, but it shouldn't be so boosted that you can't modulate the pressure well.
And throttle - DBW systems where 1/2 pedal travel = 4/5 throttle opening annoy the hell out of me, as do laggy throttles that don't react quickly to pedal movement.
Gears - I prefer manual, but a good auto is fine.
Comfortable (enough).
In Aus, that means air-conditioning and a roof, if you want to drive in summer.
An engine that feels willing to rev - it doesn't have to be super powerful, but too many engines just fall away and feel "flat" in the top 1/3 of their range.
By a staggering coincidence, my 30+ year old MR2 fits those requirements quite well.
300bhp/ton said:
Something with high engagement and involvement. Both usually required to get the best from the vehicle. Hence something like a Land Rover Defender/Series is a drivers car as much as an MX-5 or TVR is.
You really should cut down on the drugs.A series LR may be challenging to drive, and it may even be rewarding to be able to find all 4 forward gears, and stay in one lane using only 1/2 turn of the steering wheel when the wind changes, but it's never going to be a drivers car as such.
It's a utilitarian piece of farm machinery.
Yes, I have driven them, and enjoyed it too, but really
A driver's car doesn't have to be specific a particular niche / size / layout / or drivetrain. It is also relatively subjective, and can be heavily influenced by aesthetics and trim / styling, whether we like to admit it or not.
It is also not specifically dependant on the application (road/off road etc).
It doesn't even have to be part of the design brief and objective either ...... Sir Alec Isigonis didn't have fun or racing in mind when designing the mini, and was actually not supportive of the sporty Cooper models
It is also not specifically dependant on the application (road/off road etc).
It doesn't even have to be part of the design brief and objective either ...... Sir Alec Isigonis didn't have fun or racing in mind when designing the mini, and was actually not supportive of the sporty Cooper models
Alex said:
300bhp/ton said:
In ST guise maybe. But otherwise no, it is just a dull hatch by and large. IMO.
Every version since the 5th generation has had great steering and a decent chassis. I wouldn’t rate my chances trying to outrun the Golf down a country lane in it, but I would have fun trying...
Drivers all have different preferences, so by definition this will be highly individual. For me personally, it's about having a conversation with the car as I drive. So the car should respond to what I ask of it, in exactly the manner I want, so if my inputs are calm and linear, so should be the responses. The car should also talk back to me, telling me what it's doing and what the grip levels are like.
This definition of mine does not include handling or performance, so for example I consider a base spec Elise as more of a driver's car than a Cayman S. The Cayman is faster and has better weight distribution, so arguably handles better, but it doesn't offer anywhere near enough feedback, the steering is non-linear (the rack teeth spacing changes), and there's a slight lag on the throttle pedal; ergo in my mind it's not as much of a driver's car. To take this to an even greater extreme, although I've not driven either, I suspect a 1960s Elan is a better driver's car than a typical modern supercar.
As a final note, the differences we all have in this definition are the cause of lots of disputes on here. I'll say a Cayman isn't much of a driver's car, and someone else will disagree, yet we're both right, because we have different definitions of "driver's car".
This definition of mine does not include handling or performance, so for example I consider a base spec Elise as more of a driver's car than a Cayman S. The Cayman is faster and has better weight distribution, so arguably handles better, but it doesn't offer anywhere near enough feedback, the steering is non-linear (the rack teeth spacing changes), and there's a slight lag on the throttle pedal; ergo in my mind it's not as much of a driver's car. To take this to an even greater extreme, although I've not driven either, I suspect a 1960s Elan is a better driver's car than a typical modern supercar.
As a final note, the differences we all have in this definition are the cause of lots of disputes on here. I'll say a Cayman isn't much of a driver's car, and someone else will disagree, yet we're both right, because we have different definitions of "driver's car".
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