RE: Jaguar I-Pace to (and around) the N?rburgring

[brogenville]

mstrbkr said:

FlukePlay said:

So I'm not the only one shocked at the charge of 29 Euro? Blimey, I thought that once you spent 80 grand on an EV then charging was peanuts, 3 quid overnight. I'm beginning to think that EVs are doing more damage than good. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

On the subject of global resources, more cobalt is used in petrol/diesel production than in battery production.

That 29 euro charge is a real outlier to be fair.

You’re talking about the cobalt used as a catalyst in the de-sulphurisation process?

I would love to see the evidence that more of it is used in making those catalysts than in car batteries.

[anonymous-user]

brogenville said:

mstrbkr said:

FlukePlay said:

So I'm not the only one shocked at the charge of 29 Euro? Blimey, I thought that once you spent 80 grand on an EV then charging was peanuts, 3 quid overnight. I'm beginning to think that EVs are doing more damage than good. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

On the subject of global resources, more cobalt is used in petrol/diesel production than in battery production.

That 29 euro charge is a real outlier to be fair.

You’re talking about the cobalt used as a catalyst in the de-sulphurisation process?

I would love to see the evidence that more of it is used in making those catalysts than in car batteries.

Just out of interest, why do you assume there's more in batteries if you need to see the evidence? Is it a pre conceived notion? Admittedly it's said in a "fully charged" video. The evidence is given, but I'll have to find it later.

Edited by mstrbkr on Saturday 14th December 19:07

[Kolbenkopp]

gpfanuk said:

Chargeheads? Voltheads? Cableheads?

Bit closer to the engine component connection would be Rotorheads but I think the term is already occupied by helicopter fans. So perhaps Statorheads?

Re the charging costs -- IMO more than finding an acutal charger the problem seems to be finding one that works and using an app/provider that does not screw one over price wise. This https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ is really good for the planning bit....

[nickfrog]

FlukePlay said:

. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Yes, the emissions for production have already happened but what do you do when you run out of old cars?

[FlukePlay]

nickfrog said:

FlukePlay said:

. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Yes, the emissions for production have already happened but what do you do when you run out of old cars?

You look at ways to encourage car sharing more and how to enhance/increase usage of what's already out there. Although the car industry employs millions directly and indirectly, it does represent a false and inflated economy. If global car production stopped for 12 months, would car buyers really suffer? Just go out and buy a newer used model.

[RemarkLima]

I did read the other day that 6.4 litres of diesel takes 44kWh to produce and get to the petrol station

wiwo said:

For oil extraction, refinery and transport on tankers, in pipelines and trucks 44 kWh of energy was used for our 6.4 liters of diesel fuel. In other words, with this energy, an electric car would have driven 250 kilometers before the diesel fuel even reaches the tank.

The original source is in German here: https://www.wiwo.de/technologie/mobilitaet/hajeks-...

As soon as this is factored into the actual cost of an ICE it really does change the scales massively! Plus adding in all the exotic materials to get an alloy engine block and head, plus other forged parts also have a high energy burden... The chassis costs would be similar but the battery and motor vs the engine block, turbos, exhaust, catalytic converter, sensors etc would be an interesting study to compare like for like.

Obviously, ICE has a massive economy of scale,and a century of process refinement which helps!

Anyway, interesting article, and pleased to hear you can swipe to charge as so far I've failed to charge in the wild with a few minor exceptions (but then never really needed to).

[hothatchery7]

mstrbkr said:

On the subject of global resources, more cobalt is used in petrol/diesel production than in battery production.

That 29 euro charge is a real outlier to be fair.

What about lithium though?

[Augustus Windsock]

Niffty951 said:

mstrbkr said:

Anyway, that's the highest charge price I've ever heard of and quite rare I'd imagine. The next one at 8 euros is much more like it.

Currently.

^ see what you did there 😜. Shocking...

As for the mention made by Matt about the future being tripping over cables
The presumption is that we, as future owners of EVs have charging points on our properties
But what about those who might live in areas where houses were built without garages and only have on-street parking. Somehow I can’t imagine that pedestrians will be enamoured with cables lying hither and thither across the pavements, notwithstanding the fact that you may not actually be able to park outside your own property or within cables-length.
And don’t we get told that when it was half-time during England’s World Cup semi-final that the National Grid could barely cope with the demand of the tv’s and the kettles flicking on, so God knows how it will cope when we are barrelling around in electrickety powered vehicles.
To be fair, nearly all of my driving is within 20miles of home but I remain to be convinced; think I’ll do a Clarkson and drive around in a mahoosive V8 creating my own hole in the ozone layer until then...

[RobDickinson]

hothatchery7 said:

What about lithium though?

What about it, its plentiful and far less harmful to get than crude oil and can be reused.

PSB1967 said:

What hold me back from the EV revolution is the 8 year battery life / warranty. Lithium type batteries have a habit of being fine one day then refusing charge the next and becoming scrap regardless of the price point you enter at (Model X or Zoe). Then what? I haven't seen much in the way of rebuilders etc.... At least with ICE it will always run and be fixable while there is dino juice to power it.

BMW ICE warranty only covers 3 years, engines have a habit of being fine one day then scrap the next.

[anonymous-user]

Cannot wait for mine to arrive. Lovely car to drive with an excellent 'drivetrain'

[Kolbenkopp]

RobDickinson said:

PSB1967 said:

What hold me back from the EV revolution is the 8 year battery life / warranty. Lithium type batteries have a habit of being fine one day then refusing charge the next and becoming scrap regardless of the price point you enter at (Model X or Zoe). Then what? I haven't seen much in the way of rebuilders etc.... At least with ICE it will always run and be fixable while there is dino juice to power it.

BMW ICE warranty only covers 3 years, engines have a habit of being fine one day then scrap the next.

Think PSB is wise to be concerned though. Many will have had sub optimal experiences with lithium batteries in consumer devices -- tablet, laptop, phone etc. Don't last long in those applications since the batteries are designed to squeeze out the maximum possible power density very much at the detriment of ruggedness.

Chemistry of car batteries is different. Across the EV product range there are no cars where battery life has become a real problem so far. And for the extra cautious, there are enough offerings that come with a rental option for the expensive power pack.

Thinking of it, that could be interesting in the ICE world as well. Buy a 125d, but rent the timing chain challenged N47 lump from BMW and replace every time it blows up.

[RobDickinson]

10 years ago yeah valid worry, but not in 2019...

[tozerman]

I'm sorry but the thought of paying £87K for a 2.2 ton electric leviathan that you have to faff around charging leaves me stone cold.
For that much you could buy a brilliant fun/toy car and a really economical hybrid or diesel hatchback for running around.
The best thing is if you buy used then no resources need to be used to make the things.
Cheers..... Tony

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

RemarkLima said:

I did read the other day that 6.4 litres of diesel takes 44kWh to produce and get to the petrol station

wiwo said:

For oil extraction, refinery and transport on tankers, in pipelines and trucks 44 kWh of energy was used for our 6.4 liters of diesel fuel. In other words, with this energy, an electric car would have driven 250 kilometers before the diesel fuel even reaches the tank.

The original source is in German here: https://www.wiwo.de/technologie/mobilitaet/hajeks-...

As soon as this is factored into the actual cost of an ICE it really does change the scales massively! Plus adding in all the exotic materials to get an alloy engine block and head, plus other forged parts also have a high energy burden... The chassis costs would be similar but the battery and motor vs the engine block, turbos, exhaust, catalytic converter, sensors etc would be an interesting study to compare like for like.

Obviously, ICE has a massive economy of scale,and a century of process refinement which helps!

Anyway, interesting article, and pleased to hear you can swipe to charge as so far I've failed to charge in the wild with a few minor exceptions (but then never really needed to).

That really is a remarkable thought!

[nickfrog]

FlukePlay said:

nickfrog said:

FlukePlay said:

. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Yes, the emissions for production have already happened but what do you do when you run out of old cars?

You look at ways to encourage car sharing more and how to enhance/increase usage of what's already out there. Although the car industry employs millions directly and indirectly, it does represent a false and inflated economy. If global car production stopped for 12 months, would car buyers really suffer? Just go out and buy a newer used model.

You make a fair point about high churn rates and low occupancy rates. But I guarantee that we will eventually run out of used cars to satisfy demand and if you do cut production second hand prices will go up.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

nickfrog said:

FlukePlay said:

nickfrog said:

FlukePlay said:

. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Yes, the emissions for production have already happened but what do you do when you run out of old cars?

You look at ways to encourage car sharing more and how to enhance/increase usage of what's already out there. Although the car industry employs millions directly and indirectly, it does represent a false and inflated economy. If global car production stopped for 12 months, would car buyers really suffer? Just go out and buy a newer used model.

You make a fair point about high churn rates and low occupancy rates. But I guarantee that we will eventually run out of used cars to satisfy demand and if you do cut production second hand prices will go up.

Well yes, but in those circumstances I suspect far fewer cars would get scrapped and would have to be saved by the owner.

[Kawasicki]

Drove one round France a couple of weeks ago. Charging was a right faff, but the car itself is pretty damn good.

Edited by Kawasicki on Sunday 15th December 19:43

[Flumpo]

tozerman said:

I'm sorry but the thought of paying £87K for a 2.2 ton electric leviathan that you have to faff around charging leaves me stone cold.
For that much you could buy a brilliant fun/toy car and a really economical hybrid or diesel hatchback for running around.
The best thing is if you buy used then no resources need to be used to make the things.
Cheers..... Tony

99% of people buying one of these vehicles are leasing or pcp. I seem to remember the ipace was going for around £400 a month. You can’t get another hybrid/diesel daily and a fun sporty car for that monthly pay out.

If the same people bought used them £400 would probably get them something for £25k on a hp agreement. That wouldn’t impress the Jones.

Personally I would love an ipace and leasing would be the way I would go. But I do 30k miles a year. So I’m stuck with diesel second hand for the foreseeable future.

[_ppan]

Niffty951 said:

It's the 29€ for a quoted 175 miles that caught my attention. At current Netherland fuel prices that would be the same cost as achieving 40.6mpg in your diesel car. If real world range wasn't 175 then mpg does down from there.

I'm a car enthusiast, owning an MX5, hoping to own a Civic FD2R anywhere in the coming 2 years and we have also decided that our daily driver that will replace our C-Max will absolutely be electronic.

29euro's is excessive. Also, the iPace is not a particular efficient car when it comes to energy consumption. Real world will mean you charge at home for your daily drives, which for most people is what you do most often. Charging against regular electricity rates will be much cheaper.Maybe half or a third.

Niffty951 said:

If I've learned anything from diesel uptake it's that the raw cost of the fuel has nothing to do with sale price and the cost will soon increase as the customers move to a new fuel. Suddenly the 'free' driving looks a bit of a pipe dream

If you have solar panels, which more and more people do, electricity will stay cheap. Only on those few occasions you need to drive further than the range of the car you would need to use more expensive services. Besides that, driving electric is not only about cheap "fuel".

Niffty951 said:

For the average consumer to give up time, convenience & sound/driving engagement to take on range anxiety, the loss of three day 1200mile driving tours of Scotland in a long weekend. There has to be a big sell. I thought that was near zero running costs.

It completely depends on what you buy the car for. In daily driving there is no less convenience. Instant warmth from the heater, no engine noise, instant torque. Those are really big advantages for daily or holiday drives. Way less maintenance. I bet that needing less maintenance, almost never having to fuel up again outside of your own home when you're sleeping or whatever will WIN time, not cost extra. Nofi, but this is typical anti-EV rant, concentrating on rare occassions where an EV might be at a slight disadvantage and neglecting all advantages that you gain in most of the drives.

One other major advantage is the savings in CO2. Now, if you don't care then this will not interest you. But, I am as much concerned about the environment as I am enthusiastic about cars I do consider as a major advantage the huge amount less CO2, particulates and how much less energy is needed to get "fuel" in my batteries.

And why wouldn't you be able to do a driving tour like that? I bet the argument is that you lose a lot of time charging. Further down your post you talk about safety concerns. It would be a safety concern of mine if you tell me that you drive 600 miles without any break. You need those breaks anyway and during those breaks you can charge at least a part of the battery. Yeah you will need some extra time charging but not all charging time is lost time. Not by a long shot. IF you do a break every 200 miles, 4 breaks of 15 minutes, 2 of 30 minutes for lunch and dinner. 2 hours of breaks. That's 3 charges already. It will, at most, cost you 2 hours extra over the complete weekend. So, in your everyday life you don't need to be at a fuel station anymore, only in rare occassions you need to be at charging stations.

Now, if this is about those few times a year you make a really nice journey in a sports car then yes I understand what you mean. Then engine noise is a major plus (I love the way I can hear my MX5 engine in the cabin). But why would you want to do a road trip like that anyway in a big SUV? No matter if it is an EV or fossil fuel powered car. Also, most people use cars just for getting from A to B.

In my ideal situation I'll be driving a petrol car in some nice weekend drives while driving an EV from and to work etcetera. Unfortunately second hand availability is not ideal at the moment

Niffty951 said:

There's also a serious safety concern to be addressed around the perception of speed. First highlighted by Mr Hammond.

Cruise control, adaptive cruise control. If not, maybe you can tell me what the problem is, I'm not sure what Hammond has said.

FlukePlay said:

So I'm not the only one shocked at the charge of 29 Euro? Blimey, I thought that once you spent 80 grand on an EV then charging was peanuts, 3 quid overnight. I'm beginning to think that EVs are doing more damage than good. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Funny thing is, if you drive on green energy then the savings in CO2 are bigger than the costs of building an EV, even though production of an EV costs more in terms of CO2 due to the battery production. So if you charge with green energy then you are most certainly better of in terms of CO2 reducation than driving an old car that also has higher CO2 emmissions. Even using grey energy the CO2 savings are significant.

My source is this article in which all the numbers are calculated by an independent collective of journalists:
https://decorrespondent.nl/6601/waarom-de-elektris...

Augustus Windsock said:

The presumption is that we, as future owners of EVs have charging points on our properties
But what about those who might live in areas where houses were built without garages and only have on-street parking. Somehow I can’t imagine that pedestrians will be enamoured with cables lying hither and thither across the pavements, notwithstanding the fact that you may not actually be able to park outside your own property or within cables-length.

Amsterdam has a lot of public charging stations at regular parking spots on the streets. Never has this been a problem for me or enough people to have any media coverage about this potential problem.

Augustus Windsock said:

And don’t we get told that when it was half-time during England’s World Cup semi-final that the National Grid could barely cope with the demand of the tv’s and the kettles flicking on, so God knows how it will cope when we are barrelling around in electrickety powered vehicles.

And here EV's can be a solution instead of a problem. If more cars support vehicle to grid then cars can power houses in those moments that huge spikes in demand are the case. Then, after the semi final is over, people have a drink and go to bed, cars can recharge that bit of power that was used to power that spike. Smart charging is in development where people can choose to charge cheaper when the cars are charged on moments when power is abundant.

Augustus Windsock said:

To be fair, nearly all of my driving is within 20miles of home but I remain to be convinced; think I’ll do a Clarkson and drive around in a mahoosive V8 creating my own hole in the ozone layer until then...

If the only thing that matters in this world is cars then this is probably best in your world

Edited by _ppan on Sunday 15th December 19:59

Edited by _ppan on Sunday 15th December 20:00

[Lt. Coulomb]

nickfrog said:

FlukePlay said:

. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Yes, the emissions for production have already happened but what do you do when you run out of old cars?

Uhm that old ICE crap will emit multiple times of the production emissions even in the 8y standard lifecycle so keeping it for decades is a moronic fossil idea.